Helpful ReplyIs it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it?

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bobernaut
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2015/07/29 06:22:22 (permalink)

Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it?

Hi, and thanks for reading this. I have been learning the art of Mastering for a few months now and have a fair hold on it I think. Of course, like most people in this position, I can not get my projects as loud as the loudest loud that's out there. I know that they (the major studios) have a lot more money than I do and can afford the best gear available. I understand that the expensive gear has much better digital converters and that this ultimately adds up, in part, to the louder song that they produce.
Now, what I have done so far is only slightly under the overall volume levels of the professionals who work for the Major labels. The overall clarity of my stuff is not as rich and clear as the Pros.
But, here's the strange thing: My listeners prefer the louder, peaking songs of mine over the lower volume non-clipping songs, I have explained to them that the louder song is not the right way to do it and then try to point out why it isn't. Regardless, they still want to hear the clipping, peaking songs over the non-clipping peaking songs.
You may be asking who these listeners are. They are just your regular fans who have almost no knowledge of clipping, distortion, peaking and so on.
You may be asking what type of music this is. It is a heavy Slipknot/Rob Zombie/Ministry-type sound.
So, now that you know this, I'm asking those of you who know or think you know from experience, is it ever okay to clip a lot or even a little in your opinion?
And, do you know or believe that any of the commercially successful hard rock or metal bands out there (who record and try to sell), do, in fact, intentionally allow clipping on their Master in order to obtain more overall end volume?
I am really curious about this answer and what you all think. I hope some of you answer this with your industry or otherwise wisdom.
 
Thanks,
 
bob
  
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tenfoot
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 06:34:09 (permalink)
Hey Bob.
Sounds as though you are having some fun there:)
In digital recording you should never push anything into clipping - ever. There are ways to get that fat, saturated, distorted sound that your fans like that will sound much better. I am sure some of the folks here will have some ideas - your genre of music is not really my area.
 
Bruce.
 

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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 07:28:39 (permalink)
bobernaut
 
[...] The overall clarity of my stuff is not as rich and clear as the Pros. [...]




To be honest, this is where the focus should lie. The end listener typically has access to a volume knob and will often make the decision to turn something up or down - clarity will allow them to choose from either without issue (to them).
 
The only time I ever walked out of the local pub (also a family restaurant) without even ordering was due to the owner allowing a band to use sound levels way beyond any norm. When he asked me on the way out why I was leaving, I simply said, "Even the best music on the planet can be loud enough to be obnoxious." The only "volume knob" I had access to was to leave.
 
Commercials are the common one that violate this, so please bear in mind that "loud" never equates to "better."
 
Also bear in mind that compressors are becoming more common with streaming media, so the playback medium could easily squash the dynamic range dramatically on you (as well as lower your volume).

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sausy1981
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 07:59:25 (permalink)
Are they listening to the songs volume matched
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 08:14:18 (permalink)
sausy1981
Are they listening to the songs volume matched



very important if you compare mastered tracks: you gotta match the volume for A/B comparison otherwise it is very misleading ...
 
if you overdo the loudness thing, the production will suffer, irrespective of the genre ... you push it too far, it gets crappy ...
 
<< for the record: I'm not a mastering engineer myself / I have heard quite a few PRO productions that were spoilt by making the master too loud / when we send rock tunes to mastering we explicitly ask not to make it too loud >>

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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 09:23:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dream Logic Audio 2015/07/31 03:36:05
It's not to do with peak loudness. Nor are the convertor chips in expensive interfaces necessarily any better than the chips in the less expensive ones, often they're the same. The biggest difference lies in the supporting circuitry.

As for loudness, humans perceive loudness primarily from how loud something is on average. Which means in audio terms we pay more attention to the RMS level than the peak level. Very short transients, such as the initial transient from a snare drum or banjo, can be incredibly loud, loud enough to be almost painful if sustained, yet be ignored by our ear/brain combination.

Lower actual volume, but sustained, tends to sound much louder. For example, a guitar distortion pedal or fuzz can sound incredibly loud compared to the "clean" sound when the pedal"s off. But when measured the distorted sound can be actually much quieter than the clean peaks. Guitarists sometimes find this out the hard way when they stomp on an overdrive, which sounds massively loud, only to have their solo disappear because the volume has actually dropped.

So making something sound louder is more to do with raising the RMS level compared to the peak volume than anything else. This is done by the, hopefully careful, use of compressors and limiters.

We also tend to perceive certain kinds of (slight) distortion as more musical than no distortion.

As for clipping, there are two kinds. One is the analogue kind, which can be emulated (though not always perfectly) in software, where the waveform starts to get compress with the extremes chopped off. Guitar amplifiers and distortion-based effects are the classic example. The other kind is where a digital circuit is overloaded and runs out of ones and zeros to represent the sound. At that point you get a very loud, very nasty noise with no musical content at all.

There are plenty of examples of music (and advertisements that are much louder than the TV programme) that's limited to the point where the waveform looks like a rectangular brick, with very little in the way of dynamics. It's actually quite hard to listen to for any length of time because it's tiring. The lack of dynamics can also give the impression it's quieter than it actually is once our hearing has shifted to accomodate the volume.

And as has been said, the only way to compare two different masters is to ensure they are listened to at the same volume. Until our hearing "shifts" we tend to prefer the louder track. Demonstrating that a more expensive system is "better" by raising it's volume slightly compared to a "not as good" system is an old hi-fi showroom sales trick.

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#6
AT
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 10:43:00 (permalink)
Yea, it is very hard to match levels for a listen-off.  And it is hard to match pro levels since they:
 
Have flat tracking rooms with no pronounced buildup of frequencies which show up later.
 
High end hardware can absorb not just high energy but the transients while transformers and tubes help round/flatten transients out.  Even w/o T&T, high end stuff doesn't distort so much as saturate and has a lot more control before finally distorting (unpleasantly).  So it sounds more like what we hear from professional sources.  A fifty dollar per channel preamp/converter sounds great most of the time, unless overstressed.  At the top end of its gain and with incoming loud sources, however, it doesn't stay quite as smooth.
 
Then, before mixing, export every track to a stereo editor like Sound Forge and scroll through the track.  Any time you find a peak a couple of dBs above average, excise it w/ the eraser tool.  Suddenly the track has + 2-3 dB more headroom, which you can quickly excise too using normalization, compression and limiting.  Then you should have a nice block of sound to put back into the project.
 
Then master those until there is nothing left but a block.
 
It still probably won't match a commercial product (esp. any of the loud metal ones) but you should be much closer.  Then raise the volume of your song up until your audience thinks yours sounds better and see how far you still have to go. 
 
 
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 10:52:07 (permalink)
To answer the original question, yes, the pros sometimes do use clippers to squeeze every last dB of volume out of a mix. Most would prefer not to, if it was up to them.
 
Bear in mind that the volume-war trend is reversing. Pushing your volume to the absolute max will likely make your productions sound dated in a few years, like diving sinewave toms and gated-reverb snares from the 80's.


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Kylotan
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 15:38:33 (permalink)
I'm pretty sure that Metallica's Death Magnetic has clipping all over the place. Not sure if it was intentional or not, and I think they went much too far with it, but yes, clipping is done. There are ways to make it less damaging to the audio - only clipping drum hits, using a soft clipper to avoid harsh aliasing. I routinely use a clipper on my drum track and have in the past used a soft clipper on the master to get a little extra headroom, though I'd probably avoid the latter these days since a decent limiter will do much the same job.
 
There are other techniques for increasing perceived loudness you should push to the limit (pun semi-intended) before you bring out the clipper - automate stray loud parts down a little, compress individual tracks, multi-band compress the master, throw in a limiter, consider saturation, high and low pass to remove inaudible energy to give yourself even more headroom, etc.
 
I don't think there's much point trying to tell people they're 'wrong' for preferring the overcompressed and loud versions. They like loud music generally, they want songs to be roughly as loud as each other when played on shuffle, and they don't want quiet sections in those loud songs to be inaudible over the sound of traffic when listening on headphones outdoors. And a little extra distortion on the track is not going to upset someone who is a fan of music that is heavily based around distortion in the first place.
 
 

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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 16:12:42 (permalink)
Hi. The "loudness war" is hopefully coming to an end.
The (perceived) loudness (I believe) is more of a pause in sound, than a consistent sound.
The loudest songs I have ever heard, has been the ones with the biggest (volume) range. It all depends on the volume knob... 

Ken Nilsen
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David
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/29 21:25:10 (permalink)
Bob , are you using a brick wall limiter? Like Voxengo Elephant, concrete limiter, FXG , Waves L2 ,Ozone limiter ,the list goes on and on. These will raise your levels with out clipping and make them extremely loud , now whether they sound better is anther story.  You may be asking something complete different but compression and limiting is the way to make things louder. 

David F

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MArwood
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/30 12:33:05 (permalink)
Waves L-316! It will squash it to death! LOL  Sometimes waves will put it on sale. L-2 is also really good. I don't like L3  much.  Any Voxengo plugins are real bargains!  Dave Brown has a nice limiter too.  Sony Oxford Limiter is ok but I think its a little over priced.  I like Fabfilter stuff too they make Pro-L that is a very popular "Mastering" type limiter.
 

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bobernaut
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/30 22:44:53 (permalink)
Wow! You guys have really given me a lot of good material to think about. And, I must say, that I got something new out of every single reply that all of you made. I don't know how I could possibly thank each one of you but know this: I will now produce something much better because of all of your efforts. Sometimes  the best we can get is a thank you although it sounds as if I am a jerk this way. Maybe its the karma thing for all of you?
Anyway, reading through all this, which I have done several times already, I feel like I am reading an insider's secret guide to better production or something. I must admit that I was unable to follow some of the wisdom at this point but most of it I got. I bet some of you guys are some heavy-duty producers and just aren't saying so.
Unfortunately it would take longer than I have to respond to what each of you has said, but I promise you that I got something new to think about out of each response so thank you all again!
If there are others still who wish to impart even more wisdom I would like to encourage you to do so if you have the time. I assure you all, your efforts are not wasted and I will keep coming back to this thread in hopes that there is even more advice to read.
 
Thanks Thanks Thanks!!!
 
bob
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 01:05:26 (permalink)
+1... great stuff here... thanks all
 

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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 01:33:24 (permalink)
As I have said before and will say again...BOOST!! to WIN! -S

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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 01:39:49 (permalink)
BOOST11 I mean!
 

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Zargg
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 06:05:42 (permalink)
Both the (Nomad Factory) BT Brickwall, and LP64 Multiband, as well as Boost 11 will give you good results. 
And then there is the Concrete Limiter (Pro channel) as well.

Ken Nilsen
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#17
Karyn
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 06:40:34 (permalink)
When you say clipping..  what exactly do you mean?
 
There's good ol' analogue clipping where the peak tries to go higher than the power supply will allow and rounds off.
Or tube clipping where the peak saturates the plates and rounds off.
Digital clipping where you hit the biggest number and the peak squares off (or worse, wraps around to 0 and starts again)
Then there's limiters, where the peaks are artificially clipped, but it's still clipping all the same and is distortion just like any other clipping.
 
If you're trying to raise "loudness" by simply hitting a limiter hard the clipping (distortion) will create high harmonics (sparkle/presence/air) which for the right genre of music could be a good thing...  and thus why your test audience prefers it over the quieter version.

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#18
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 07:42:37 (permalink)
I noticed Mark Ronson clipped Amy Winehouse material.
Seems to be the way of the world.
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mettelus
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 09:47:29 (permalink)
Beware of such, the right combination of clipping and power can blow a nice set of speakers.

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#20
Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 14:25:33 (permalink)
I'll jump in here. :) I've learned in digital audio that just because a light lights up, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. Though I try my best to never clip anything, sometimes I don't HEAR anything audible that tells me I need to lower something. So for me, if it sounds good, it is good. That said, there are things that need to be done to a mix that allow us to put out a super loud master.
 
You don't just grab a good limiter and slap it on. It matters not what limiter you use, it's not going to give you the results you need unless you prepare the mix "for loud".
 
To do that, look at your mix wave forms. Do you see spikes? Look at your master bus and always have "wave form preview" turned on. How does it look? Spikey?
 
Each one of the spikes that you see on your master bus represent something that is loud....a peak. If you were to put a limiter on, the spikes that you see are the loud points fed into the limiter. It can only go as loud as your hottest spike without distortion. The better the mix, the more consistency, the louder you can go without distortion.
 
To control these peaks, you need to find out where they are coming from on a per track basis. Once you control your spikes/peaks, this allows you to raise your over-all volume. For example, say you have your master bus fader at -8dB and your master bus LED readout is -5dB. If you reduce all the peaks, your LED readout is going to be even lower....which means, you can now raise the master bus fader. You've made the mix louder just because you controled the peaks. See, one peak at -5dB controls your entire loudness. That may happen one time. This means, your mix average may be -10 dB but because of that one spike, you're capped at -5. The limiter will work off of that so that it doesn't pump and breathe.....unless of course you drive the heck out of the limiter. Even there, all you'll get is distortion. Once you can raise your over-all volume with consistency, then the limiter really does a wonderful job to make things louder.
 
Some limiters are dirty and ruin your sound. I have a tendency to voice my opinion a bit too much on here where I upset others, so I'll shut my mouth as to not disagree with some of the choices and opinions on limiters given in this thread. I do this for a living and have a great business....I'm not a hobby guy, so I tell it from a business experience as well as having been in this field for 36 years. Try everything and find out for yourself. As for listening to people that are telling you to make things louder..tell them what I tell all my clients that try to get me to crush the crap out of things for volume...
 
Because I know what I'm doing, one of my masters with a happy medium will obliterate a super loud one in clarity, dynamics, sound quality and over-all volume. You have to keep in mind, a very loud master is capped at like 4 or 5 on your volume knob. Any louder and it distorts and sounds horrible. Bring in a good master and it will not distort and the volume will go up and up and up surpassing the super loud one while keeping the quality. To me, that's where you need to be.
 
I've passed on so much work from people wanting me to make their stuff super loud, I can't even begin to tell you. I love music.....I will not be one of the reasons it's been ruined or degraded. I won't take on a job "for the sake of money". I think it's horrible to have something so loud, it sounds distorted and un-musical just because of a genre. If I want it loud, I turn it up myself.
 
I find it annoying to be listening to something at a perfect level and then have to drastically turn down my volume knob because something else comes on that is so loud, it scared me to death. Some find humor in that, some think it goes with the territory. I think it's annoying....just like those videos people post near Halloween that get you playing a game and then some stupid, scary face jumps out at you. Seriously....it's just as annoying. Don't play into it, Bob. One day you'll listen to this loud, clipped stuff and say "man, what was I thinking" and you'll either go back and remix/remaster, or wish you could if you no longer have the original files. Trust me....I've been there man.
 
I'll leave you with the other important thing about loudness. We mentioned peaks and controlling them....the sound of your mix is just as important. If you are boosting bass frequencies or congested mids, this turns into distortion even if you have eliminated peaks. A bad mix is still a bad mix amplified by a limiter. So if you want loud, proud and great....the mix has to be great and needs to stand on its own without a limiter. From there, you control the peaks and then the limiter will do the work for you. What limiter that is.....will depend on what you are going for. I had to try them all myself to see what worked for me. But just remember, the cleaner and more clear your mix, the less trouble you will have no matter what limiter you use. :) Good luck.
 
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#21
gswitz
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/07/31 16:04:47 (permalink)
If I see any lights go red, I fix them.

Pro channel, channel meters, bus meters. Anywhere.

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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/01 07:35:47 (permalink)
gswitz
If I see any lights go red, I fix them.

Pro channel, channel meters, bus meters. Anywhere.

Right on. 
 
The thing is that it's easy to have undesirable distortion creep in and not notice that it's happening. Not until you fix it and are surprised that it sounds better as a result.
 
I used to believe that going into the red was no big deal as long as it occurs within the floating-point domain, and all you have to do is turn it down at the master to prevent audible artifacts. I've since found that to be a dangerous practice that can lead to subtle, cumulative degradation. Nowadays I take care of red flags at the source and never rely on a limiter to compensate for my own laziness.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#23
batsbrew
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/01 11:34:17 (permalink)
crunchy mixes.
 

Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#24
bobernaut
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/04 07:20:18 (permalink)
Wow again to all of you guys and girls for helping me out on this. I am indebted to you all. I mean, I take all of these comments and mix 'em around in my head for a couple of days and then go back to the PC and I am a little further along than I was. This is exactly what I needed and you all gave it to me-for free! Take that Commercial world of greed!
I would not want anyone to feel slighted so I have not specifically commented to any one person's reply-yet. But, now I feel I must. Please take no offense if I do not mention you by name; it doesn't mean that I disliked your advice any more or less than another's advice. I think the goal for me at this point is to now try and narrow things down a bit so that I can improve.
 
The first thing I did was to put IK's Classic clipper on my Reason 8 and was happy with the results. It brought up my drums, bass and more to a near-equal level with Sonar x3. I had been trying like hec to bring the volume of Reason up more and this worked. That was the first success attributed directly to your help. I am sorry, I can't remember exactly who said something about this, but I bet you know who you are-thanks!
 
Another one of you mentioned something about the snare maybe being too loud and hurting one's ears. I went back and trimmed the length on the snares and I think it improved the overall mix clarity. Thanks for this one too.
Now, I am very intrigued by this razor tool that a couple of you mentioned. Where can I get this razor tool? I have only Sonar x3 Professional in the way of Cakewalk. I would love to go and cut the tops off to get more headroom but I have heard that this razor tool is expensive. Is it not? I believe that AT said Sound Forge has this tool. Does anyone know if there is a reasonably priced razor out there? Please reply if you know about this!
 
What else? All this talk of limiters and using the correct one. I have tried some of them and have landed on Boost 11 as my main one to go to. Is this acceptable in your opinion? It seems to get the better results for what I am doing but I am far from a "limiter" expert. And how does a "brickwall limiter" differ from Boost 11 anyway? Do I need to use both of them or just one? Please answer if you know because I don't.
 
I have recently, due to this post, switched on the waveform preview on the master. It shows 2 fat, even lines so I am guessing that this is what I am after. There are no spikes at all.  Thanks Danny D for this. And while I am at it, I can't thank you enough sir for helping me. I know you don't need to do anything for us at all since you are a working professional in the business. I think it is a great statement that you would take the time out of your life to help. I don't know what caused you to do it, but thanks so much. I took every single thing you said as gold. I know exactly what you mean by that thing you said about Halloween and I get it completely and will work towards your advice. So, your advice, as well as others, is to simply say "NO" like Neo did in the Matrix movie, when it comes to cooking the master to compete with the Slipknots of the business? I believe you but it is a massive leap of faith to do this and risk not being as loud as the current standard.
Thank you all so much for your help and I am sorry that I couldn't mention all of you by name. I will now return to the workstation and put some of this into practice. I will be back if this thread still has any momentum (I hope so!)  seeking more wisdom from you all. Thank you for taking your precious time to help and I will talk to you all again soon I hope!
 
Thanks,
 
bob
#25
Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/04 17:37:16 (permalink)
bobernaut
 
What else? All this talk of limiters and using the correct one. I have tried some of them and have landed on Boost 11 as my main one to go to. Is this acceptable in your opinion? It seems to get the better results for what I am doing but I am far from a "limiter" expert. And how does a "brickwall limiter" differ from Boost 11 anyway? Do I need to use both of them or just one? Please answer if you know because I don't.

 
Hi Bob,
 
The right limiter, is the one that works for you and gives you the results you are looking for. To me, Boost 11 is one I don't care for at all. It's just too dirty and gets there way too fast with artifacts. In my opinion the Concrete Limiter that comes with Sonar obliterates Boost 11. The Blue Tubes Limiter is nice too. My favorite limiters (for what it's worth) are The Concrete in Sonar, Waves L1. L2, L3/LL series (which can get a little dirty if you are not careful, but not in a non-musical way....great for hard rock and metal) and the Rolls Royce of limiters, the PSP Xenon which is super transparent and great for most types of music.
 
No, you don't need both a brick and a conventional limiter. The brick wall limiter has an infinity ratio as well as a look-ahead feature so it analyzes as it processes. Conventional limiters sort of let things through and are more forgiving without some of the bells and whistles a brick wall limiter has. The brick wall is just what it implies....your sound hitting a brick wall where it is limited to whatever you set it to. In a nutshell, the brick wall packages things up super tight and makes them loud. The downside there is, if you don't use it right, it will ruin a mix faster than you can say....say. LOL!
 
bobernaut
 
I have recently, due to this post, switched on the waveform preview on the master. It shows 2 fat, even lines so I am guessing that this is what I am after. There are no spikes at all.  Thanks Danny D for this. And while I am at it, I can't thank you enough sir for helping me. I know you don't need to do anything for us at all since you are a working professional in the business. I think it is a great statement that you would take the time out of your life to help. I don't know what caused you to do it, but thanks so much. I took every single thing you said as gold. I know exactly what you mean by that thing you said about Halloween and I get it completely and will work towards your advice. So, your advice, as well as others, is to simply say "NO" like Neo did in the Matrix movie, when it comes to cooking the master to compete with the Slipknots of the business? I believe you but it is a massive leap of faith to do this and risk not being as loud as the current standard.
Thank you all so much for your help and I am sorry that I couldn't mention all of you by name. I will now return to the workstation and put some of this into practice. I will be back if this thread still has any momentum (I hope so!)  seeking more wisdom from you all. Thank you for taking your precious time to help and I will talk to you all again soon I hope!
 
Thanks,
 
bob




That "2 fat, even lines" scares me. Can you post a screen shot of that for me? I'm not so sure you're seeing what you should be seeing. Every song has spikes. They are not always bad, so don't let what you see dictate what you do to try and remedy something. Spikes represent different attributes in music, they can be tension points, they can be dynamic hills and valleys within your music too. The object is for us to control them, not totally remove them as the peaks also contain "energy."
 
For example, if THIS is what you see, you'd be about right. Notice the blue-ish wave form on my master bus. That is what the entire song would look like if I exported the audio. (To see it better, click here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/X2%201.JPG )
 

 
If you are seeing anything that resembles this out of your master bus in waveform preview: (Click here to see it closer https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/StAngerWaveform.JPG )
 

 
You are in Metallica territory and WAY too hot. You want a few natural little peaks. See how that looks like a square box? That's so loud it just never breathes nor does it sound very good.
 
Now, you can push things loud....but you have to look at RMS too. That Metallica stuff was like -4  or -3 Max RMS....which is insanity. Then you have your average RMS....which is where the song is averaged out. They were like a consistent -4 or something...which is just wrong. LOL!
 
Now here's a shot of one of MY loud masters on a little instrumental I did.(Click here to see it better https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/DannyCjam.JPG )
 

 
The purpose of the song was me testing out some stuff I do in my beta work. I also wanted to try and get this song loud but still wanted to keep sanity as well as dynamics.
 
My song is at -7dB RMS and averages -12 dB RMS. It's still loud and proud, but is not as loud as commercial mixes nor is it squashed and horrible sounding. Notice it is NOT square boxing? It has its peaks and valleys but also looks like a nice wave form in my opinion. It's a hard rock/metal instrumental...so there are certain things I felt were good for the song. For a different style of music, I'd approach it differently. But this is plenty loud hitting -0.3 peak.
 
You're welcome on the help thing. I've been haunting this place for a long time. I love to try and help people as well as make a difference when I can. Quite a few guys are professionals on here that help out. The "pro" title just means "we run a tight ship, deliver what we promise on time and do our best to never let anyone down." :)
 
But seriously, I love this stuff as well as helping out when I can. I just get a bit too intense and involved, which is my downfall. I see so many people being lead astray all the time, I feel the need to step in. It's too easy to take 10 steps back in this field, man. The majority of people that try to help on sites really do have the best of intentions yet there are just as many people that try to make it harder than it really is, ya know? Ever read something from someone that makes you read it 5 times and yet you still don't get it?
 
That's the type of thing I try to save people from. It's not rocket science, nor should it be taught that way. Half the guys that talk that way usually never show their work or when they do, it's not something you want to borrow from because it's not very good. I can't tell you how many times I see that. I just try to cut some of that out of the way without confusing the heck out of people. What can I say......I'm opinionated, I'm stuck in my ways, I tell it how I live it, I have no degree nor do I have a Grammy. LOL! But for some odd reason, I seem to keep on getting business. I chalk it up as "God loves me". So I just thank Him and continue on. :) Best of luck!
 
-Danny

My Site
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#26
bobernaut
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/08 06:30:09 (permalink)
Hey Danny D, the man. Thanks so much for your help again. I would guess that you must have spent 20 minutes at least on this reply and that's amazing to me given that you are busy working in the biz. You certainly have demonstrated to me what kind of person you are and I am grateful to you. I have thought, from time to time, that some of the people on here who try to help are too busy demonstrating how superior they are in this field to truly help we lowly neophytes. Not so with you! I know, enough with the worship...
Okay, to get to some stuff you have answered here. I think you can relax a bit on the 2 fat lines thing. I struggle with the correct wording on this forum pitifully so. It makes me sound like a bit of a dummy I think sometimes. After seeing your examples, I believe that I am fairly near the loud mastered instrumental that you showed a picture of. Its not the first one that you showed me that resembled a perfect looking rectangle. I did try doing the first picture that you put up in the past and it sounded so horrible that I knew that it couldn't be right. Not really. I backed down some and ended up somewhere around the loud master picture that you posted. From what I can tell, this is more the preferred way than the rectangle. I say it this way because I have gotten a fair amount of advice suggesting that I keep going until I end up with the solid rectangle. Rest assured, I will ignore that advice in favor of yours. Let's just hope I understood correctly! I will still provide a picture for you if you wish but, as I said, it closely resembles your loud instrumental picture.
I am happy that you provided the "numbers" that I should strive for. I have heard many different things on this but now that you have said this, I will now have a valid base level. I have found some conflicting things in the past pertaining to books on this subject. I will have to re-examine my "numbers" on this but I don't think I am all that close to your numbers. I really didn't know what to believe until now. So, once again, thanks!
Now, about the Boost 11 stuff. In my own way, I agree with you on it not being the best maybe. I just didn't have enough experience to believe my assessment of it. When you said it gets there way too fast, I see what you mean by that. I will try the concrete limiter that you suggested. I am assuming that the PSP Xenon is expensive if it is one of the best. It would be great if I had it though I'm sure! As far as the waves stuff, I have only recently discovered them and have not been able to make a judgment about them yet. But, I will look into them (waves people).
Now, for a personal insight from me about you Danny D. You have a great way of explaining this quickly and without being condescending while doing it. This is an admirable quality to have and few have it from my experiences. In my opinion, if you were to have the time and inclination, you should write a book on this subject if you haven't already done so. I wouldn't be surprised if you had and would ask only for the title so that I could get it! I like your simple anecdotes as they quickly get the point through for me without going on and on like I am doing now.
I see that you have a "services" down below there. I have a feeling that I am way past the "free content" stage here so I shall trouble you no further. I just want to thank you once more for all that you have done for me. You have probably sped me up a couple of months with your help and that's cool, man. I humbly ask that should I fall into a deep, deep hole one day soon, that you allow me to contact you (via email or other) as a mentor. I know this is weird, it would be for me too, but I promise I will not abuse this privilege if you were to grant this to me. It would only be for emergencies or if I am completely lost in the woods. If you need to charge me a fee I understand and accept within the parameters of my finances. If this is beyond what you are willing to do I understand this too and will hold no ill feelings. Thank you for your consideration on this and if you refuse I do understand. In fact, I am sorry to even ask this but feel that I must try because you have done what I am trying to do so who better than you to learn from?
 Now, I am off to listen to your band and see if you are a better guitar player than me!. Thanks Danny D!
 
 
 
bob
 
 
#27
Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/10 15:18:56 (permalink)
Hey Bob,
 
Wow, not sure where to start on this one. Thank you for the kind words...and you're welcome.
 
Some last thoughts on loudness: No you don't have to supply any pics. I was just concerned when you said "two straight lines". That to me could have meant:
 
a) You may not be sending your tracks to a master bus and it's just showing two, no signal lines. (you can have a master bus and not have your tracks routed to it. Enabling wave form preview would give you two straight lines in this scenario)
 
b) you're square boxing/rectangling from being too loud (is that a word? It is now darn it! LOL)
 
I have personally always looked at it like driving a car. Drive it as fast as you can control it. Some speeders really can't drive at high speed. Though none of us should speed, most people drive in a straight line and don't do well with braking or turning. Therefore, they shouldn't even think of speeding because they may hurt an innocent person.
 
Like driving under control, loudness can be loud...as long as you don't degrade the quality and keep it under control. I have a CD produced by David Rosenthal (Rainbow/music director for Billy Joel who also tours with him) in the 90's with a band called Red Dawn. The singer Larry Baud and I go back a long way. We used to play together and he too is from NJ in a town about 15 minutes from me. Anyway....
 
This CD is one of the best rock/metal CD's I own. Another thing about it....it's one of the loudest CD's I own. It clips on everything I play it on...BUT...I never physically hear clipping. So in a situation like that, if you feel like making something super loud....make sure it still sounds good. This CD maintains quality to me and still has dynamics. I don't know how they did it or what went on to get it that way. When I asked Larry, he said he just recorded his tracks and David did everything else. So whatever they did....I'd probably have to try and get a hold of David to find out...which now that I think of it, may not be a bad idea if it's even possible. LOL!
 
At any rate, mix as loud as you feel the need to mix or master. Just keep your quality in mind and make sure you don't have pumping or breathing due to limiter/compressor over-use....and make sure when something is supposed to be dynamic and more quiet, that it remains that way. I still like that you are choosing to ignore the square box advice from others. BUT...as much as it pains me to say this, there are *some* forms of music that can get away with clipping and even bad fidelity. Some guys just like that sound. I have a punk band I'm working with that wants that sound. So....I have to keep them happy.
 
However, their music doesn't sound ruined. It sounds loud, aggressive, and a little dirty because of their style....not because I am using a limiter to kill them. They aren't trying to enter a loudness war...they are working on an identity...which to me, is a little different. We're not entering Metallica waters....so we're loud, but we're not hideous. :)
 
On the numbers thing: Again, go by what you hear, not what you see. Most sane albums today or classic rock albums being rte-mastered average from -11dB RMS to about -16dB RMS. They may peak at -10 or -9 dB RMS. It all depends on what they decide. I say use your ears. I do what I do...and look at the numbers to see how I did. I never go for anything specifically. I know how far my limiters can go and I try not to push them. For certain styles of music, I go lower...for others, louder. But the only times numbers make me decide things are:
 
1. Some clients for TV or radio ask for specific things. You have to be on for stuff like that due to the processing that goes on AFTER you do your thing.
 
2. I do check for clipping, DC offsets and anything that may look weird. That said, I try not to act on anything that looks weird (other than a possibly clipped sample...which is usually a harmless transient...but it's a warning sign to be concerned with that I usually fix just in case) unless it SOUNDS weird. For example, DC offsets (when extreme) are not good to have. I remove them during processing. After they are removed at the finalization stage, there may be a DC offset of .001% on one side. 1/1000 of a percent is nothing to worry about. So I leave it. The less processing, the better.
 
3. I like to get both of my channels in the wave form reading the same -0.3 final output at all times without normalizing. If it doesn't read that, I look into why. But again....if it sounds good...leave it unless you notice a major left/right volume offset.
 
The numbers, like eq analyzers, are just guides. It's rare for me to act on something I see over something I hear unless it's the 3 things I mentioned above. Same with analyzers, I don't look at an analyzer unless I need to. When I need to, there's a reason...which I will probably attempt to fix something based on what I *see*. The same for "numbers". Don't let them rule what you hear. I used to have a list of numbers that I wanted to achieve because of Bob Ludwig and his consistency. I gave up on them because....I'm not Bob Ludwig and those numbers are hard to get unless you know how he is getting them and have the same gear. Use the ears man....they are the best tool you have.
 
Boost 11: Yeah it's just not a very good final limiter for me....or the stuff that I do. It gets dirty faster than it gets loud and consistent. It works, I just don't like it. Yeah the PSP is pricey...but you don't need it. The concrete limiter in Sonar is good enough in my opinion. I use it for all my pre-production stuff and it works just fine.
 
Insight about me: You're too kind man....thanks so much and I'm glad to have helped you! I wish everyone would take me that way. One of the worst feelings is to be taken wrong. I've not written a book as I don't think anyone would be interested, but I have archived quite a few articles on my own forum that you are welcome to read for the price of....signing up for the forum. Totally free...you just can't see it all until you sign up. :) Quite a few goodies taken from posts I've done all over the net.
 
As far as the mentor thing, if I see you post something on here....I'll do my best to try and help you. If you become a student of mine via "services" part of that package is you get me for life to analyze and help you with your material. It's hard to dedicate the time some people need for free. Trust me, if I had that time Bob, I'd do it. I've done it in the past. But one of the things that hurts is...it was too easy for people to take advantage of and I'm actually a sincere soul (until someone decides to be a Richard Cranium) that has feelings. I'm busy running two studios, I do consultations, recording lessons, mastering, video stuff....it's just hard to do anything without blocking someone time for a price. Every 30 minutes, costs money. I'm all about a schedule that I have to handle or I'm working at Booger King.
 
You have to own a business like this to understand it. It's not just about money....it's about survival in a time where I'm lucky to be able to have income from this. I worked hard to build it up like it is and it's paying off thank God. So I have to be careful. I have people that book with me a year in advance for some things. There is always something happening...so I have to control the time as well as be more selective in who I help. I've been hurt a few times too....and once you get hurt, you don't even want to come on a forum and help anyone. The downside there is....me staying away affects the people that DO like what I have to say. So I try to hang around here and there. :)
 
Nah, it doesn't take me long to post these novels. Thankfully, I type like a lunatic and can do about 75 words per minute or more. It sounds like a machine gun over here. LOL! :)
 
Anyway, thanks again for the kind words and the conversation. Good luck with what you're doing and I'll be looking out for your posts when possible. :)
 
-Danny

My Site
Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
#28
bobernaut
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/10 20:52:52 (permalink)
Thanks once again for your time and reply Danny D. I have checked your site which is something I almost never do. That sound you have is something I can't quite put my finger on- seems like maybe late 80's heavy metal? I only buzzed through the samples though. Whatever it is, it is an accomplishment to be proud of for sure.
I figured that you were a busy person but I didn't know the extent. It sounds like you are extremely busy to me and I am guessing that you come by the forum to get away from it for a few minutes. As I have said before, your help has really helped me out on some of these technical issues that would otherwise have taken a  lot of time and quite a few dollars in books. Books...a necessary evil sometimes but a sad excuse for an actual person who can get to the meat of things much faster. That's you! No, I understand completely about people who try to abuse your kindness even if they didn't really have that particular intention. I do not intend to be considered one of those people. I think I am probably already into your time a bunch and I don't want to become an irritation to you. You know, like when some person you don't really like that much comes to your front door and rings the doorbell and you groan while deciding to either hide quietly or answer the door. No wait...that was one of my old girlfriends. I understand the old stand-by "time is money". It is pretty much always true no matter what you do or where you go.
I am pretty much never a "numbers" person and more of a "feel" person so as I take it, you might be saying that it is okay to see what the numbers say but don't necessarily make every move according to what they (numbers) say. I think by changing out the Boost 11 for the Concrete limiter I won't go "red" so fast so I am looking forward to trying this valuable little nugget you passed on to me. I still have one more question pertaining to the numbers but I will put this question out on the forum where you can choose to try to answer it or not rather than trying to have you serve as my own personal tech support. You can't make any money that way!
I appreciate everything you have passed on to me here about your past and accomplishments in the industry. I find them to be quite interesting and am happy for your success. In fact, I still can't figure out why you feel any need to help people but probably only you know why you do this. Whatever the reason, I am grateful still. I will try to put your advice into action and you can see how I do as you see the questions come in on the forum. I thank you for all your help and hope to see one of your great answers soon (really soon probably). Hey Danny D, you don't need to reply to this by the way. I hope your next record and tour is awesome man! Good luck dude.
 
bob
#29
Danny Danzi
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Re: Is it ever ok to clip for more volume during mastering? Do the Pros do it? 2015/08/11 18:42:19 (permalink)
Haha yeah, I'm a proud child of the 80's. Thanks for the kind words.
 
It's all good, Bob. I dig helping people. This stuff isn't, and doesn't have to be delivered as rocket science. It's way easier than some will lead you to believe. With the right listening environment, good tracking and proper instrument choices, you're 80% there in my opinion. But really, helping makes me feel good. I guess a lot of it is due to a prayer I said years ago that opened my eyes as well. Quick story for you...
 
I was always in need of help and info. I remember waiting for the chance to talk to my guitar hero's that lived near me or pick the brain of a production guy. Just a moment of their time....just a hand shake or a few questions. No one ever helped me. I got the same old "you just gotta keep practicing, kid" or "save up and buy a Marshall". No one ever told me about the effects they ran through that Marshall to make it sound that good. No one ever told me WHAT to practice to get good. No one spoke about the little things that made the HUGEST differences. It was like everyone wanted to keep secrets....and to be honest, it sucked. So I did the work and all the experimentation, spent money I didn't have....wasted money....but I figured out a lot of cool things.
 
One day, I said a prayer to God. I said "God, if I ever make something of myself to where people will respect my opinion or what I do, I promise to try and help them and won't push them away like what happened to me."
 
A few years later, I started posting info that people found helpful that actually worked for them....and here I am today. I try to give back when I can not just because of the prayer/promise, but because I really want to see people enjoy this field without frustration. I can't tell you how much money I wasted and how frustrated I was at times with EVERYTHING! Music, recording, people, life...you get the idea. At the end of the day man, we're all in this world together. I say we make the best of it as a team. There really are no secrets.
 
Money.....nah it's not totally about money, (though it is important is this day and age) it's more running a tight ship and maintaining business while never letting someone down. The problem is, everything is so time consuming when you don't have enough time in a day. Heck, I can't even play on people's songs for fun anymore....my schedule just doesn't allow it. I never just lay down a track. It takes me an hour or two no matter what I do. In that time....jobs could be done. I have tried to stop working on weekends though. LOL!! The other studio runs but I'm off.
 
When you have a business like this, you have to seize the moments when they come at you. Sometimes you make a killing per week/month...other times you get a little slow and have to live off your savings for 6 weeks or even 6 months. Thank God I've not been in that position in a long time, but I HAVE been there. :( AND...we all know how bad this economy has been for everyone.
 
Books: See, books to me are not really a necessity. It depends on what gets taught and how it gets presented/delivered. I think they lead a lot of people astray due to them teaching you on gear you do not, or will not ever own. The same with some videos from the pro's. They share great recordings most of the time. Let me tell you, when you have a great recording of an instrument, not a lot needs to be done to it. They aren't giving examples of the stuff common folk, hobby guys are dealing with. That to me, makes it much harder. When you see a video of someone that has turned mediocre instruments into something that makes you smile, you follow that guy to the ends of the earth and pick his brain. :) Anything less (or more)....well, you end up with knowledge that may not necessarily work in your situation.
 
It's like, I can show you 1000 different things using MY sounds. What good does that do you for YOUR sounds? A guy mic'ing up an amp vs a guy recording direct will have a totally different set of circumstances. The guy that doesn't understand that we do NOT need loads of bass in a guitar tone is going to use a compressor differently than the guy that "gets it". What I mean is, the more low end you use while not knowing....the more a compressor is going to clamp down.
 
The guy that doesn't realize that a bass guitar isn't supposed to be over-loaded with percussive high end or excessive sub lows, is not going to process the same as the guy that high passes at 60 or 80 Hz or the guy that removes 5k on up on that problematic bass. Sound choice and identification are the keys before you hit the record button. Every situation brings on a different set of options too. Though sound is and always will be subjective, there are good sounds and bad sounds in the recording field. Some you just can't fix no matter how much time you put in. Others are so good, you literally have to degrade them a bit to make them work in a mix of other instruments.....and other just work like magic. That's just the way it goes.
 
Anyway....
 
Thanks for the wishes. We have a lot of irons in the fire for the next record. Some good label interest at the moment (we sold them on the pre-production stuff we have) I just need to get the thing totally done. :) Hard to do when we only get one night per week at 3 hours to work on it. We've been at it since 2010. LOL!! Slowly but surely, we're getting there. Talk at ya later man.
 
-Danny

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