AnsweredWould You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First?

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razor
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2015/07/31 18:41:03 (permalink)

Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First?

Hey All--
 
I'm on the fence about something and wondered if anyone here has any insight that might help me fall over--one side or the other.
 
IK Multimedia has a new Mesa Boogie amp models version coming out and if you order now before the release, it's $100 US. If you wait until it's released, it's $150 US.
 
Pretty good savings, BUT, there is no demo that you can use to determine if you A) Think it captures Mesa Boogie amps, and B) You like it/need it based on what you already own.
 
I love Boogie amps--I just do. I have a DC-30 that I mic, and I also have a couple other brand amp modeling plugs--so I don't 'need' the plug, but I just can't plunk down $100 for a plug-in that I can't test drive first.
 
What are your thoughts? It looks great--5 amps--and their video makes it sound awesome. Would you pay $100 on a plug-in that you can't demo in your system first?
 
Thanks,
 
 http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/mesa/

Stephen Davis
 
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#1
cclarry
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/07/31 19:06:17 (permalink)
Amplitube Amps in general are decent.  If IK hadn't of done a decent job 
modelling the amps I don't think MESA would have endorsed or given
them the license for the Emulations.

That's just my thoughts...and I have everything Amplitube, except this now.

I'm no expert, but for my ears, nothing compares to S-Gear...and ALL sims
are STILL severely lacking....


#2
Gone!!
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/07/31 21:30:55 (permalink)
I thought about it briefly . . . but then I remembered how crappy I think Amplitube sounds . . . but I will try it out when it is available for demo, I'll probably end up getting just for completion sake, I have everything else and don't use them, one more is not going to hurt, but have a feeling it will probably be pretty good. Currently BIAS Amp Pro and BIAS FX Pro are leaps and bounds ahead of the pack IMO, and Amplitube has been lagging well behind the pack for quite a long time, to me anyway.
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JohnKenn
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 02:52:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2015/08/01 11:47:37
Larry nailed the issue. "All amp sims are still severely lacking"
 
Nothing out there currently, marginally resembles anything real. They put a brand name on it, get some fading rock star to endorse it, and hope that's enough reality for the masses to fire up the credit card.
 
We do not have the technology for another 20 years or more to do a real simulation of any live amp hardware. Too complex to deliver.
 
Amplitube 3's opening page is admittedly clean Fenderish though... As long as you don't have to resort to overdrive when everything falls apart.
 
S-Gear is cool, and doesn't try to push Orange, Vox, Fender, Slash, Marshall down your throat.
 
Respect Head Case also for an open, roll your own approach.
 
John
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bitflipper
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 08:42:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2015/08/01 11:47:49
I have never bought any plugin without demoing it first, or at least hearing "naked" audio demos, regardless of how exuberant its online praise. Experience has demonstrated over and over that reputation and popularity are not reliable predictors of whether or not a processor will be useful to me.
 
I am especially dubious of amp sims.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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clintmartin
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 09:52:43 (permalink)
Sims don't sound or feel like an amp in the room, but they are getting closer to a mic'ed recorded sound. I've been impressed with several of them. S-Gear is my current favorite, but Amplitube is excellent too.

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#6
Eddie TX
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 12:33:00 (permalink)
Even if that Mesa bundle turns out to be the greatest thing ever, IK will surely put it on sale at a heavy discount sooner or later.  The "pre-release" price is not exactly chicken feed ... you can get Bias Desktop for that, and S-gear for not much more, and both have demos available.
 
To the tune of the Bob Marley classic:  "No demo, no buy." 
 
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bapu
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 14:11:02 (permalink)
Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First?
 
Yup. I did on this one (Mesa). Had some Jam Points so it was $70. Just over my no brainer limit but hey, I'm a fool.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 17:50:07 (permalink)
I did it with Rap Pro.. Hmmm....

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bapu
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 19:38:28 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
I did it with Rap Pro.. Hmmm....

There you go.
#10
JohnKenn
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 20:48:54 (permalink)
re Clint...
 
Overstated my prejudice, because like you said, we are on the cusp of doing a credible mic'd amp with several softwares out there already. Even the ancient POD Farm can compete beautifully. Amplitube, S-Gear, Guitar Rig (with a bit if intense love), HeadCase. Peavey Revalver 4 is dynamite.AmpLion, Kuassa (guardedly...)
 
So many others that sit like a real thing in a mix if you got enough floor ambience to mask the flaws of an isolated presentation. You can even set some of these to an extrapolated state of better than live in some ways.
 
My complaint is when they come in with a Marshal, Orange stack, whatever. Almost always an eq setting imposed on a digital square wave. Nothing ultimately Orange or Marshal about it except for the price.
 
Way more respect, and lend credibility to the guys out there who tell you up front, here's a fuzz box you can tweak around to get a good sound. Call it what you want and save the settings, but it ain't chasing some brand name.
 
Okay, off my soap box for now.
 
John
 
 
 
#11
Guitarpima
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/01 23:57:24 (permalink)
I always said that amp sims just sound bad. I have to amend that though. It depends on how you get the guitar signal into it that matters. I mixed a song for someone how used a clean signal and Amplitube sounded really nice. I tested my Eleven Racks clean signal and I will use Amplitube if needed. I used to use a Roland Octa-Capture and Amplitube sounded horrible.
 
Demoing software is a good idea.

Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
 
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bitflipper
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 00:11:38 (permalink)
...Guitar Rig (with a bit if intense love)

I'd sure like to know the secret for getting GR to sound good. I bought the full product this year on sale, on the presumption that my previous failures were due to only having a small subset of the full package. Unfortunately, it still sounds pretty awful. Since buying it I haven't been able to use it even once.
 
I guess that story negates my earlier claim to have never bought anything without trying it first.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#13
gswitz
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 00:18:30 (permalink)
Practically speaking, I have bought plugins without demoing if you count all the stuff in sonar. There are other things too.

In general I'm careful with my money. The most expensive software is software you don't use.

But demos have not been great predictors of what I use.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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razor
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 01:45:41 (permalink)
Thanks all. I guess the middle ground between ordering now and saving $50 and not ordering at all, is waiting until the demo comes out and see if it's worth it.
 
That's what I'll probably do. I agree the real thing is the best, but there are times I want to add a little sauce to a track.
 
I also know there will probably be some kind of sale later--maybe much later, but hey, if it's that good, I'll be willing to pay for it or wait for it.
 
Thanks again.

Stephen Davis
 
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ohgrant
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 11:41:36 (permalink)
 I'm a fan of many of the amps and custom pedals in Amplatube but nothing is worth buying before trying except large sample based libraries maybe , I may grab it one day but It's not going to be until I can try it and still get it for $100 or less. I'm guessing it will be sooner rather than later that a sale comes up.

Me
 
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JohnKenn
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 13:03:39 (permalink)
Bit,
 
regarding Guitar Rig,
 
Decent third party compressor upstream mellows it out. By itself, lots of good effects, but the distortions sound harsh and artificial otherwise (to me anyway). Try a comp first, compensate with the GR noise gate. There are impressive sounds to be had. The initial presets feel too much biased toward metal overkill.
 
John
#17
IK_Multimedia
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 16:31:48 (permalink)
Well, it isn't just slapping a brand name on it - there's an arduous process as these are no slouches in the industry and they have all be very particular - MESA has been a very hard process and I understand the reluctance to believe that there's more than just a business deal behind all of it - but there is.  MESA was the toughest and frankly I'm surprised this is even coming out since it was that tough to please them.  Orange and Fender were also very picky and we were poised to actually get something out on time in the case of the latter but they had a very big issue with what was a near-inaudible (actually inaudible in almost every conceivable and tested case) issue and we went back to the drawing board to get it exactly right.  But opinions are opinions, sound quality is subjective, and all that and I admit that most of us here obviously still drool over the best hardware / tube amps / etc.   But if you want the most accurate version of the companies we model officially, even they say (and genuinely so) that it comes from AmpliTube.
 
Anyway, I really just came here to point out that I've stressed that there are a lot of you on forums, social media, etc, that would love to see a demo available before the preorder pricing is over.  I can't make any guarantees but I did my best to make the point that it was a legitimate concern being voiced.
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Fleer
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 21:01:11 (permalink)
Thanx, Peter!

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
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JohnKenn
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 22:38:13 (permalink)
Peter,
 
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, and respect the depth of engineering involved in IK effort, as far as I can understand. Amplitube is cool, and navigate to Amplitube 2 for some subjective aesthetics hard to achieve in ver 3 for whatever reason.
 
My point that the real life, rubber meets the road end point delivery of a specific amp is too far advanced for us to do a decent job on the interaction between amp and cab. Amp tubes heated up for several hours to a sweet point. Interaction with cab hysterisis bouncing against melting nalgahyde. Real world complexities versus attempting to recreate some semblance of the real thing with a limited digital software program
 
Nothing does the task digital by any developer yet, IK or anyone else. Pending for what it is worth years up the line, but not yet. We are getting better thru time, but still neandrathal in our efforts to deliver the real thing. Cannot be done, period. Mortal endorsements have no weight or claim when the end product falls short of the glory. Just where we are at. Will get it worked out in this lifetime however (if you are younger than me...)
 
John
 
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JohnKenn
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/02 22:38:15 (permalink)
Peter,
 
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, and respect the depth of engineering involved in IK effort, as far as I can understand. Amplitube is cool, and navigate to Amplitube 2 for some subjective aesthetics hard to achieve in ver 3 for whatever reason.
 
My point that the real life, rubber meets the road end point delivery of a specific amp is too far advanced for us to do a decent job on the interaction between amp and cab. Amp tubes heated up for several hours to a sweet point. Interaction with cab hysterisis bouncing against melting nalgahyde. Real world complexities versus attempting to recreate some semblance of the real thing with a limited digital software program
 
Nothing does the task digital by any developer yet, IK or anyone else. Pending for what it is worth years up the line, but not yet. We are getting better thru time, but still neandrathal in our efforts to deliver the real thing. Cannot be done, period. Mortal endorsements have no weight or claim when the end product falls short of the glory. Just where we are at. Will get it worked out in this lifetime however (if you are younger than me...)
 
John
 
#21
dlesaux
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/03 20:47:20 (permalink)
Depends on the developer.  Personally, I don't like the whole T-Racks approach.  I have multiple amp sims and have demoed many others. I've settled on Guitar Rig for now after using a PODxt for several years.  In my opinion, all of them have their merits. If you take the time to tweak them  and learn them well, you can get some very useable sounds that sit well it in a mix.

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#22
razor
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/03 23:15:36 (permalink)
IK_Multimedia
Well, it isn't just slapping a brand name on it - there's an arduous process as these are no slouches in the industry and they have all be very particular - MESA has been a very hard process and I understand the reluctance to believe that there's more than just a business deal behind all of it - but there is.  MESA was the toughest and frankly I'm surprised this is even coming out since it was that tough to please them.  Orange and Fender were also very picky and we were poised to actually get something out on time in the case of the latter but they had a very big issue with what was a near-inaudible (actually inaudible in almost every conceivable and tested case) issue and we went back to the drawing board to get it exactly right.  But opinions are opinions, sound quality is subjective, and all that and I admit that most of us here obviously still drool over the best hardware / tube amps / etc.   But if you want the most accurate version of the companies we model officially, even they say (and genuinely so) that it comes from AmpliTube.
 
Anyway, I really just came here to point out that I've stressed that there are a lot of you on forums, social media, etc, that would love to see a demo available before the preorder pricing is over.  I can't make any guarantees but I did my best to make the point that it was a legitimate concern being voiced.




Wow. You make me almost want to buy it now. Asking your team for a demo is really awesome.
 
Thanks!

Stephen Davis
 
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#23
IK_Multimedia
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/04 00:29:42 (permalink)
razor
Wow. You make me almost want to buy it now. Asking your team for a demo is really awesome.
 
Thanks!

You're welcome but asking is easy, let's see if I - actually it is you guys that asked so if you - have some extra persuasive pull and it happens. That would be pretty cool.
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brconflict
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/19 10:16:28 (permalink)
I would say, just from my perspective, when so many people are critical of am sims (myself included) vs. mic'ing a real amp with a great mic (I use tube mics in many cases), a demo would seem rudimentary. I can back the comments regarding the difficulty in modeling the Mesa/Orange/Fender amps judiciously. Consumers have been burned by cheap imitations in the past vs. what real sims sound like today, so many mouths are tainted by damned efforts. There really is a LOT of work to sim something faithfully.
 
With that said, amp sims are probably the most difficult to produce, even more than consoles, mics, EQ's, etc.
 
I've not heard a tube amp sim that can faithfully reproduce real tube breakup. Not one.
 
I still record the real amp in a room with a real mic (usually a tube and ribbon mic), because there's just no way a sim can estimate the environment the amp is in, the age and bias of the tubes, nor the tube breakup the guitarist is used to and has rehearsed with. Then, there's the vintage year of the amp and the pairing of the amp and cab.
 
 

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#25
Monkey23
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/19 10:31:22 (permalink)
Would I buy a plug-in without a demo first?
 
I try not to, but there are some instances where I'd make an exception. Like if your company is called Spectrasonics and your product is called Omniphere. But mostly, I strongly prefer to have a demo first. All the demos and tutorial videos in the world cant confirm where or not the product will be to your liking and whether it fits with your music. But once in a while you have to take a chance.
 
Having said that, try Bias Desktop (as others have mentioned). It does have a demo, and in my opinion it blows anything Ik Multimedia has ever produced. It's not perfect, but it's reasonably priced, extremely versatile, and has a great community for sharing tones. But again, it might not work with what you do.
#26
IK_Multimedia
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/19 14:00:00 (permalink)
AmpliTube allows demoing of all gear - it is merely this upcoming MESA/Boogie collection that does not and only during the preorder period.  This is an exception, not the rule.
#27
Mesh
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/19 14:28:19 (permalink)
IK_Multimedia
AmpliTube allows demoing of all gear - it is merely this upcoming MESA/Boogie collection that does not and only during the preorder period.  This is an exception, not the rule.


But, isn't that defeating the purpose? What better way to bring in more/new customers in allowing them to Demo it during the pre-order period?
 

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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/19 14:32:29 (permalink)
Gotta hand it to Mesh 

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
#29
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Re: Would You Buy a Plug-In Without a Demo First? 2015/08/19 14:36:04 (permalink)
Fleer
Gotta hand it to Mesh 


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