Help with a Drum track (stereo track only)

Author
clintmartin
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3893
  • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
  • Location: Fort Smith, AR
  • Status: offline
2015/08/11 23:09:04 (permalink)

Help with a Drum track (stereo track only)

Well I messed up. Now I have a stereo drum track only and the hi hat is too loud. Any ideas or techniques to help with this? Does that Groove Extractor VST work?

Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
 
 
 
#1

23 Replies Related Threads

    synkrotron
    Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5263
    • Joined: 2006/04/28 16:21:21
    • Location: Warrington, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 04:12:31 (permalink)
    I'm wondering if Melodyne editor would work with this... I've only just got it myself so I've never tried it.

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
    Intel Core™i7-3820QM Quad Core Mobile Processor 2.70GHz 8MB cache | Intel HM77 Express Chipset | 16GB SAMSUNG 1600MHz SODIMM DDR3 RAM | NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675M - 2.0GB DDR5 Video RAM | 500GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | Windows 10 Pro | Roland OCTA-CAPTURE | SONAR Platinum ∞ FFS| Too many VSTi's to list here | KRK KNS-8400 Headphones | Roland JP-8000 | Oberheim OB12 | Novation Nova | Gibson SG Special | PRS Studio
    #2
    Beepster
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 18001
    • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 09:36:00 (permalink)
    Hi, Clint. Do you still have R-Mix installed? See if you can get the isolation circle to hone in on just the hi hat then turn it down.
     
    This may affect the tone of the other cymbals BUT if you really dial in around just the HH freq (especially the attack phase of the hit) then it might be workable.
     
    You could also automate the "inside" level of the circle (which would be the hi hat sound) so that it only turns down when the hi hat is actually playing. Like if the beat switches to a ride automate it so R-Mix isn't doing anything and then when the hh comes back in you drop it down again. Same for cymbal crashes (at least during the attack of the crash if the hh comes back in quickly).
     
    Remember R-Mix is pretty heavy duty and I believe uses lookahead tech so you may want to bounce the effect after you get it set up how you like (and you will DEFINITELY want to bounce if you are going to be recording more tracks... I've had crashes trying to record with R-Mix running).
     
    Cheers!
    #3
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 10:01:24 (permalink)
    I dealt with exactly the same problem a couple years ago. What I came up with is this...
     
    I first cloned the drum track. Then I put an EQ on the clone with very steep filters that suppressed everything but the hats. If you don't have an EQ capable of extreme slopes, you can use two EQs in series, or one EQ with multiple overlapping filters. Then I routed that nasty-sounding hats-only track into the sidechain input of a compressor on the drums. There were a few places in the key track where crash cymbals were coming through that I didn't want triggering the compressor, so I took them out with volume automation.
     
    I'm sure there are more sophisticated ways of doing this, but it worked well and saved an otherwise-unusable drum track.. 


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #4
    Beepster
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 18001
    • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 10:27:25 (permalink)
    @bit...
     
     
    Yup. R-Mix is really just an EQ that let's you get at the frequencies in a wacky, but ultra precise ways (which you of course know). It also let's you actually get at specific sounds on either side of a stereo track (so if the hats are panned to the left you can focus on that side instead of yanking the freqs out of both channels unnecessarily). That's why I recommended it but otherwise I'd totally do what you suggest (and have on stereo drums).
     
    I'm betting some of the fancy Melda stuff you guys talk about could do a good job too and something like Izotope RX would probably be perfect.
     
    Since I'm pretty sure Clint owned X2 though he'll have R-Mix around (even if a custom install is needed... if he removed it).
     
    Cheers!
     
     
    Edit: I didn't read the last part of your post. That's way fancier than what I've done but cool.
    post edited by Beepster - 2015/08/12 10:40:21
    #5
    tlw
    Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2567
    • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
    • Location: West Midlands, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 10:56:33 (permalink)
    Multi-band compressors are useful for this sort of job, with just the frequency range of the hats being compressed. Even better is a multi-band compressor side-chained to a hats-only track along the lines of bitflipper's suggestion.

    Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
    ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
    Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
    #6
    Beepster
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 18001
    • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 13:16:39 (permalink)
    Clint... Bit and tlw are far more intelligent and experienced fellows than I am. I defer to the methods they are suggesting and now want to try that kind of thing out myself.
     
    I would still try out the R-Mix thing (because I find it really quite good at just turning a specific sound down in a stereo mix) but in comparison with what those guys are suggesting.
     
    This is why I love this particular subforum. Always wicked advice and approaches to try out.
     
    I actually typed up a long winded mini success I attribute to listening to the heavy hitters around here but baleeted it because it's off topic. Essentially... all my dredging for info these past few years has resulted in a seemingly "balanced" mix (when summing to mono from stereo) without even really trying.
     
    Cake Forumz Rool!
     
    Cake Technique Forum? Epic ultra ROOLZ!!!
     
    ;-)
    #7
    papacucku
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 135
    • Joined: 2015/04/13 16:28:35
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 13:37:22 (permalink)
    Can anyone elaborate for a second about that sidechaining to the compressor mentioned above.  What does that do ?  so if I have a track of isolated frequencies and I put a compressor on the original drum track then point the goofy track to the side chain input....does it only compress the frequencies it sees on the signal coming in from the side chain?    If thats true that is pretty cool and did not know that.
     
     

    Rig1: Platinum. 1513 Intel Core i7 5930K (3.50GHz) 32GB DDR3 SSD, GTX 970 Windows  10 64. Focusrite Saffire 6i6. Presonus Monitors.
     
    Rig 2:Platinum. Win 7,  Quad CPU 8 DDR3. SSD. RME multiface II, Oktopre MKII, StudioLive AI 16,  Presonus Sceptre Coaxial Monitors.  
    Drums:TAMA ImperialStar, Roland TD30
    Keys: Yamaha Mx-61, M-audio Keystation IRIG I/O Midi Controllers.
    Additional Plugs:Melodyne Editor, Izotope (all), Autotune, Trillian, East West(most),Addictive Drums2, Addictive Piano, AIR FX Collection.
     
     
    #8
    bapu
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 86000
    • Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
    • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 14:29:49 (permalink)
    My poor man's attempt (assuming no R-Mix available) would be:
     
    1. clone track (like Dave)
    2. Isolate hats freq (like Dave)
    3. bounce to track (for mixing)
    4. phase cancel isolated track to stereo track
    5. bounce those two tracks to a single new stereo track
    6 use tracks from 3 and 5 to mix to taste
    #9
    tlw
    Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2567
    • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
    • Location: West Midlands, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 15:57:25 (permalink)
    The effect of side-chaining would depend on the compressor.

    If it's a full-range compressor (i.e. not a multiband) it will apply compression to the entire track the compressor is on every time it received a side-chain signal.

    A multiband compressor with a switchable sidechain for each band would only compress in the frequency bands with the sidechain activated. There actually aren't many compressors with per-band sidechaining, Waves C6 is the one I use. Compressor pumping can be an issue though, so it's best done subtly.

    An alternative is careful use of a multiband comp without side-chaining just reducing the hat's frequency band. It would require quite a bit of automation to set that up though, unless compressing everything in that frequency band throughout is OK.

    Careful eq notching can help as well. R-mix is another possibility if you have it and it will work for you (it point blank refuses to load in SPlat for me, I think it,s only compatible with X2). Ozone can do this sort of thing as well.
    To be honest, if you have the original drum tracks the easiest and least obtrusive thing to do is simply re-mix them.

    Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
    ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
    Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
    #10
    Beepster
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 18001
    • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 16:03:44 (permalink)
    FWIW I've used R-Mix in SPlat. I think when I did it was Braintree but I may be doing some stuff with it soon as well (currently still on dorchester but may dl/install the more recent updates beforehand).
    #11
    clintmartin
    Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3893
    • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
    • Location: Fort Smith, AR
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 16:58:18 (permalink)
    Thanks fellows! Now that work is over, play can begin. I do have R-mix and have tried, but so far not very good results. You guys have given me an idea though.
    I'm going to clone the track and filter out everything I can and see if I can blend the two...basically turning up the snare and kick with the clone. I'll be back.

    Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
    http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
    https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
    https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
     
     
     
    #12
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 18:16:38 (permalink)
    I believe you have Audition, and the noise removal tool can also be used like an EQ. The nice additional feature that has is monitoring the noise being removed. You can set that and adjust till it bites into the HH then back it off a bit.

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #13
    clintmartin
    Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3893
    • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
    • Location: Fort Smith, AR
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 19:57:39 (permalink)
    I do have Audition, but I haven't used it for much more than editing peaks. I'll look into that too.
    I always look at these little mistakes as learning opportunities. I could easily just get my drummer to come back over and redo the track (it's pretty straight forward), but learning how to fix things, and taking the time to learn how to use the tools...is a very valuable thing I think. I'm working way too hard and long on the bass part for example. I could have re-recorded it 50 times by now, but I'm learning some good things. Like how much damage Audio Snap can do! Hahaha! That thing is pretty much worthless.

    Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
    http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
    https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
    https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
     
     
     
    #14
    synkrotron
    Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5263
    • Joined: 2006/04/28 16:21:21
    • Location: Warrington, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/12 23:44:38 (permalink)
    Hi Clint,
     
    Only if you have the time... Could you send me a copy of the drum track, even if it's only an eight bar section or something? I'd like to see how Melodyne handles percussion.
     
    Might come to nought...
     
     
    cheers
     
    andy

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
    Intel Core™i7-3820QM Quad Core Mobile Processor 2.70GHz 8MB cache | Intel HM77 Express Chipset | 16GB SAMSUNG 1600MHz SODIMM DDR3 RAM | NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675M - 2.0GB DDR5 Video RAM | 500GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | Windows 10 Pro | Roland OCTA-CAPTURE | SONAR Platinum ∞ FFS| Too many VSTi's to list here | KRK KNS-8400 Headphones | Roland JP-8000 | Oberheim OB12 | Novation Nova | Gibson SG Special | PRS Studio
    #15
    Rimshot
    Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4625
    • Joined: 2010/12/09 12:51:08
    • Location: California
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/13 04:49:05 (permalink)
    I think Bit and/or Bapu nailed it.

    Rimshot 

    Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
    , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
    #16
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/13 08:19:36 (permalink)
    I should have added to the description of my convoluted method above that it worked because a) the drum track was fairly sparse and b) I subsequently used sample substitution on the kick. These two factors minimized the unwanted suppression of other instruments such as cymbal tails being modulated by the hats.
     
    If faced with the same scenario today, I'd probably try MDynamicEQ first, a tool I did not have back then.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #17
    papacucku
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 135
    • Joined: 2015/04/13 16:28:35
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/13 13:39:13 (permalink)
    OK, that makes more sense. That is what I understood about sidechaining compressors. 
     
    Also on audio snap.  I have lost many many hours on it.  It can work well in short spurts, on smaller sections,  if you enable it, make the moves correctly (removing and adding the correct markers)  and bounce to clip immediately then making sure its off.  It is not something you can leave on for three or four sessions and assume its going to hold true.
     
    I re-snapped the same drum tracks with overheads about 10 times before I figured out all the little nuances. Hours and hours upon hours.  At one point it would all preview correctly and look correct in the timeline but render incorrectly?  I don't think it handles tempo changes either, but I may be getting confused with melodyne.  

    Rig1: Platinum. 1513 Intel Core i7 5930K (3.50GHz) 32GB DDR3 SSD, GTX 970 Windows  10 64. Focusrite Saffire 6i6. Presonus Monitors.
     
    Rig 2:Platinum. Win 7,  Quad CPU 8 DDR3. SSD. RME multiface II, Oktopre MKII, StudioLive AI 16,  Presonus Sceptre Coaxial Monitors.  
    Drums:TAMA ImperialStar, Roland TD30
    Keys: Yamaha Mx-61, M-audio Keystation IRIG I/O Midi Controllers.
    Additional Plugs:Melodyne Editor, Izotope (all), Autotune, Trillian, East West(most),Addictive Drums2, Addictive Piano, AIR FX Collection.
     
     
    #18
    clintmartin
    Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3893
    • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
    • Location: Fort Smith, AR
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/13 14:38:26 (permalink)
    I think I'm just going to re-record the drums...I can't find any method that is working well. The problem being the hi hat takes up a large span of frequencies. I'm just gutting everything else when I apply the amount of filter it needs.

    Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
    http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
    https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
    https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
     
     
     
    #19
    Wouter Schijns
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 259
    • Joined: 2013/01/30 10:29:18
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/13 16:27:41 (permalink)
    Clint are you sure you have no autosave copy of the Sonar project with the hats track ?
    If you have autosave enabled that is...
    Iic you won't be able to open such autosave file from within Sonar.
    But the autosave copies all sorted on time are in the Windows folder registry in the same folder where the project is.
    (the files don't have a Sonar icon, but a 'piece of paper' icon, doubleclick them let's you choose to open it with Sonar).
    Like your music,playing and the songs....reminds me a bit of Robben Ford...nice music.
    If I may reach a suggestion, I think the totally awesome guitars would come out even better with the processing a bit down, and the fader up. That's just my opinion as a music fan.
    best of luck
     
     
    post edited by Wouter Schijns - 2015/08/13 16:41:33
    #20
    clintmartin
    Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3893
    • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
    • Location: Fort Smith, AR
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/13 18:20:40 (permalink)
    Thanks for the compliments...
    I did a 'save as' and deleted the original project. I really need the midi file that was recorded in Sonar. I had a drummer play using a Octapad and EZD2 and thought I was happy. For some reason instead of freezing the track, I bounced it down to audio. A couple of weeks later I did the 'save as' and deleted the project. All 3 things were mistakes. No big deal. The drummer is coming over tonight and we will do them again. It's a simple drum part...It won't take much to fix this.
    post edited by clintmartin - 2015/08/13 18:28:47

    Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
    http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
    https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
    https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
     
     
     
    #21
    clintmartin
    Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3893
    • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
    • Location: Fort Smith, AR
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/15 10:41:28 (permalink)
    I thought I may be able to use Melodyne ARA or Sonar to convert the audio to midi, but I can't seem to do it.
     
    Here is a link to the drums on soundcloud. These were played by Randy Treadway. I added the ride cymbal later.
     
     https://soundcloud.com/clintmartin/drums-for-repair-1
    post edited by clintmartin - 2015/08/15 11:10:06

    Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
    http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
    https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
    https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
     
     
     
    #22
    synkrotron
    Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5263
    • Joined: 2006/04/28 16:21:21
    • Location: Warrington, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/15 11:49:41 (permalink)
    Hi Clint,
     
    I got to this sooner than I thought, and the news isn't good I'm afraid.
     
    What I was hoping for was that Melodyne editor would separate the different elements out, but it doesn't seem to work like that.
     
    It does separate some stuff, but, for some reason, the hi-hat is on the same line as the kick, so I am unable to manipulate the hi-hat on its own.
     
    Sorry about that... It was just a hunch, and I wanted to test it out.
     
    I don't know anything about SPlat's drum replacer as I haven't used it yet.
     
    cheers
     
    andy

    http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
    Intel Core™i7-3820QM Quad Core Mobile Processor 2.70GHz 8MB cache | Intel HM77 Express Chipset | 16GB SAMSUNG 1600MHz SODIMM DDR3 RAM | NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675M - 2.0GB DDR5 Video RAM | 500GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | 1TB Samsung 850 Pro SSD | Windows 10 Pro | Roland OCTA-CAPTURE | SONAR Platinum ∞ FFS| Too many VSTi's to list here | KRK KNS-8400 Headphones | Roland JP-8000 | Oberheim OB12 | Novation Nova | Gibson SG Special | PRS Studio
    #23
    clintmartin
    Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3893
    • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
    • Location: Fort Smith, AR
    • Status: offline
    Re: Help with a Drum track (stereo track only) 2015/08/15 15:36:16 (permalink)
    Drum replacer seems halfway done to me. It will probably be great someday, but for now it's pretty easy to switch out drums using EZ Drummer 2 or Addictive Drums 2. I guess the point of it is for loops.

    Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
    http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
    https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
    https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
     
     
     
    #24
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1