AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes

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Treefight
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2015/09/09 11:10:25 (permalink)

AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes

Anyone have any experience with AS causing swooshing and popping noises on playback?  I'm using it on multiple drum tracks (recorded live), and as soon as I adjust a transient, I get those artifacts on playback.  It seems to be ok before I adjust any transients.  All default settings on AS.  Performance monitor looks fine.
 
Thanks!

Stuff.
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    quantumeffect
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 11:18:22 (permalink)
    Audiosnap uses two "mix engines".  An "on-the-fly" mix and and then a processor intensive mix when you render.
     
    Just to see if it has to do with the processing, I would try rendering the mix by either bouncing to track or by exporting and then listen to that mix.
     
    For me, those strange artifacts go away upon mix-down.
     
    ... just a suggestion.
     
     

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
    #2
    Treefight
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 11:47:44 (permalink)
    The problem is that I can't determine if I've accurately moved the transient because it makes those sounds on playback while I'm using AS, i.e., pre-bounce (by necessity).  In other words, if I were to bounce after moving a transient (but without confirming its accuracy because of the artifacts on playback pre-bounce), only then - post-bounce - would I be able to hear if I put the transient in the right place (if I explained that clearly).  I suppose I could do it all by sight (and have considered that), i.e., move all the transients visually, then bounce and play back to see if I put them in the right place, but it's less than optimal, to say the least.
     
    I hope that makes sense.
     
    Another thing that I believe factors in is the number of tracks on which I'm using AS simultaneously (which would seem to point, at least partially, to the processor).  For example, if I need to move a transient on a single track, like the bass, it's no problem. 
     
    Along these lines, to try to remedy the drum issue, I split the drum tracks so that I could use AS on only those clips containing problematic transients (e.g., a drum roll).  However, the issue persists.  One oddity I noticed was that when I would highlight only those clips containing, e.g., the drum roll, and press "A", the entirety of the drum tracks turned to AS view, with transients displayed.  I seem to recall being able to use AS on clips within tracks, but I either forgot how or something's wrong.
     
    I'd be curious as to any further thoughts you might have, but in any event I appreciate the reply. 

    Stuff.
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    quantumeffect
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 12:04:29 (permalink)
    If you "bounce to track" you do not lose the original track.  Try bouncing the snare track of concern ... mute everything except the bounced mix-down and see what it sounds like.
     
    Also, are you quantizing the track or just moving certain transients around manually?
     
    (please note, I am an 8.5.3 user ... so, my suggestions may be a bit generic)
     
    Edit - replaced loose with lose
     
    post edited by quantumeffect - 2015/09/09 17:40:25

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
    #4
    quantumeffect
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 12:20:27 (permalink)
    ... the reason why I ask is because if you are new to Audiosnap, quantizing opens up a whole new can of worms.

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
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    Beepster
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 13:43:58 (permalink)
    You could also try changing the "Online" algorhythm to one of the other options however that may make things worse (I think this is possible IIRC).
     
    Also crank up your buffers (on your interface) as much as possible to reduce system resource related artifacts.
     
    Unfortunately there does come a point where you are going to either have to trust that the adjustments you made are accurate based on the timeline which is easily verifiable with the vertical Aim Assistant line in relation to your intended beats/measure position and where the visual transient on the wave graphic appears. So if the transient lines up with your intended beat/measure then it is likely good... but it also takes a bit of getting used to exactly WHICH part of said transients should be lined up so a couple tests may be in order until you are familiar with how the material is responding.
     
    For example not all snare recordings will result in identical looking waveforms/transients. Like a piccollo snare of a specific brand may not produce the same waveform/transient shape of deeper snare and there are other factors like mics, sticks used, the performer, etc that will affect the shape BUT one track using the same snare with the same mic(s) and the same drummer will produce a similar waveform/transient for similar hits (like a drummer performing a steady beat). Therefore you can get a good idea of where the "CRACK" of that specific snare will occur based on the shape of the waveforms and use that point to line up to your timeline.
     
    Whatever... line it up manually or set it to snap (which may require you adjust the AS transient markers to the correct spot before snapping because the auto detect algorhythms may not place the markers exactly where they need to be).
     
    Do your AS edits and bounce to check the results. You can easily revert using Undo (the bounce) or versioning the project file (so if you don't like it you just go back to the old project and try again) BUT... ideally what I would suggest is...
     
    Create a copy of ALL the tracks. These will be your new editing tracks. Archive the original tracks to save system resources (easy to do if you have them in a folder because you can just hit the A (Archive button on the folder instead of archiving each one at a time)  and be sure to put the second set in their own folder for editing). Of course at the very least you need to Mute the original tracks. If your system can handle it muting may be better because you can a/b the original parts with your corrected parts (and since they are in folders all you have to do is hit the Mute/Solo buttons on the folders).
     
    Chop up all the drum tracks into sections in your newly create "edit" set of tracks. Could be a measure at a time or based on the music (like split at each verse/chorus/bridge/etc change and around fills or whatever). Then only edit and bounce one section at a time. This seems to actually ease up on system reasources (thus preventing crashes and resource related artifacts) and IMO makes saving a lot safer (I have had serious project corruption in the past saving projects with open/unbounced audiosnap edits active in the project... that was quite some time ago though and I have not tested it recently with the new AS update).
     
    If you do it a section at a time like that then as I said, it's a little easier on the system and you could work through it sequentially. If you listen back after all your hard work and a section sounds weird/undesirable you can just go swipe that section from the original tracks (using a range select and copy) and paste it into you edit track folder (replacing the fuxxored part).
     
    If you happen to experience problems at the split points (like pops) just muck around with auto X-Fading the split tracks together (use your ears and turn off snap to create the X-Fades).
     
    Also... if it hasn't already been mentioned, if you have not enabled "Merge and Lock" markers across ALL of the drum tracks that "whooshing" sound could be caused by phasing issues. You can NOT adjust just a snare hit or a kick hit or any of that without adjusting ALL the tracks at the same time. I puts the multi mic set up out of sync and creates "phasing". That's what the Merge and Lock feature is for. With that you adjust the MOST prominent hit at any specific point in time (this requires critical thinking). If there is a snare hit as well as a kick and hi hat hit at that point in time you put the snare in time and leave let the kick and hi hat go out of time because the snare is more important. If it's it's just the kick and hi hat you adjust the kick and let the hi hat go out of time... and so on.
     
    As screwy as that sounds it works because our ears will always be drawn to the predominant hit of a drum track.
     
    If however the drummer did a REALLY sloppy job and those types of simultaneous hits are consistently out of whack then you have to create a different plan which fortunately Sonar can handle these days... but you lose the original mic's performance.
     
    That plan would be full drum replacement via audio to MIDI conversion. This can be done with the new Drum Replacer tool or in Audiosnap there is a feature to convert transients to MIDI. There is also simple ARA audio to MIDI conversion. Of course you newly created MIDI will need to be routed to a good drum synth (like Addictive Drums 2 which is also included in the two top tier packages of Sonar). You will also have to still correct all of the hits but because it is now a set of MIDI files as opposed to audio files correction become WAY eaier. You no longer have to worry about phase issues because the drum synth will play it back as a whole new performance. It is also much easier to quantize and snap in the PRV (and work with this stuff in general) than it is in Audiosnap.
     
    Hopefully that isn't too crazy sounding and at least gives you some ideas/knowledge about drum correction.
     
    There are also other very MANUAL methods you could try that totally avoids Audiosnap and MIDI drum replacement methods altogether you may find useful. Do a google search with the following terms...
     
    Sonar + Dan Gonzalez + Cakewalk Blog + Drum Production +Editing (or correction or whatever)
     
    It's a cool series Dan did a while back about OLD scool drum correction that involves splitting out every beat, snapping the clips the crossfading it all back into itself. If anything just trying it out as an experiment will help you understand drum timing correction better and formulate some educated plans.
     
    Cheers and again sorry if all that seems crazy and/or you already knew this stuff.
    post edited by Beepster - 2015/09/09 14:07:09
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    Anderton
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 14:24:38 (permalink)
     I bounce based on the preview, and undo if it doesn't work properly.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    Treefight
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 14:37:41 (permalink)
    Holy...
     
    There's a bit to think about.
     
    Quantumeffect:  I am moving the transients manually.  I may end up just bouncing and listening to the results, as you suggest.  And yes, quantizing does open up it's own can of worms, doesn't it?  And I'm "old" to AS (or maybe was old to it, as I seem to need to re-learn it). 
     
    Thanks again for your help.
     
    Beepster, I don't know what to say!  Thank you!  You've given me much to consider - some of which I've known and tried, or thought about trying, but some of which I've known about but never really thought about using in the manner you suggest.  And some of which is brand new to me.  All great stuff.
     
    I guess in a sense I was hoping AS would just "work" (don't we all just want that : ) ), as I do know how to use it, and have had success with it in the past on similar projects.  I hadn't considered the alternate methods (fully manual and audio to MIDI) for this reason, but obviously at some point it just becomes easier to switch to plan B.  Thanks for reminding me of that.
     
    I have switched up the online algorhythm, cranked the buffers, and tried chopping and editing in sections, but there's clearly more to try before dropping AS on this project.  I'm going to work through your suggestions and will get back to you on my progress.
     
    Thank you so much for spending the time and effort on such a detailed response.
     
    Regards,
     
    Chris

    Stuff.
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    Treefight
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 14:42:15 (permalink)
    Craig,
     
    Thanks for chiming in - I assume you mean based on an audible preview before bouncing?  My whole issue is that I can't listen to the preview, because once I've moved a transient or several transients, playback is impossible:  LOUD swooshing (not phasing) and crackling, and even what sounds like feedback, increasing in volume so that I have to turn down my hardware controller all the way!  After a couple of attempts, Sonar gives up and goes silent...
     
    Thanks again,
     
    Chris

    Stuff.
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    quantumeffect
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 17:15:52 (permalink)
    I hope you don't mind me asking but wrt your drum track:
     
    Are the drums recorded live?
    Are you using a multi-mic set-up on the drums?
    How many tracks are you using to record the drums?
     
    The reason for asking is that I no longer move transients on individual drum tracks when sub-mixing drums.
     
     

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
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    quantumeffect
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    Re: AudioSnap Pops and Swooshes 2015/09/09 17:25:08 (permalink)
    Here are some comments I made about taking a drum mix recorded (live) to a click and then "Audiosnapped", essentially de-quantizing it,  so I could drop it into a live band recording (replacing the original drum track because it was poorly recorded).

    I bring this up because at the time I was evaluating every transient on every track in a sub-mix of multi-tracked drums.

    Today, I would use a fairly different approach.  
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/The-Zen-of-Audiosnap-m2536238.aspx
    post edited by quantumeffect - 2015/09/09 17:37:57

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
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