Helpful ReplyHow to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR)

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vdd
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2015/09/09 14:32:36 (permalink)

How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR)

Hi,
Does anybody knows how to realize a XOR with Mute or Solo Buttons?
I have a reference track within my mixing project and I want to do an  a/b comparison between my actual mix and this ref track. My actual solution is to mute the mix-master and un-mute the ref track and vice versa. Problem: There is always a delay (silence or both audio tracks) and I've to click a lot. Using more than one ref track makes it even worse.  It is not easy to concentrate to the sound differences with these distractions...
 
How do you do it?
 
post edited by vdd - 2015/09/09 14:42:06

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smallstonefan
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/09 14:57:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HELLYA 2015/09/09 16:53:54
When I am comparing two tracks that are already rendered (i.e. not in a live project with effects, etc.) I have a test project that has two tracks. I mute one and leave the other unmuted. I then create a group on their mute buttons. That way, clicking either mute button toggles its state and the state of the other mute button; easy peasy.
 
If you are experiencing some sort of delay due to plugins, you could try Magic AB. I have this, and while I haven't fully dug deep into it, it's really helpful. You can load up multiple reference tracks, level set them, and even set individual loops on each one. Really cool, and you can find it here:
 
https://www.samplemagic.com/details/184/magic-ab?gclid=Cj0KEQjwsb-vBRCLj7TvqpGx_MoBEiQALgFGnoDELtJRQVqj5IZhu-0UE3fA8ddYsaIQ3Jb9eFV-wBsaAptN8P8HAQ
 
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vdd
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/09 15:18:08 (permalink)
smallstonefan
When I am comparing two tracks that are already rendered (i.e. not in a live project with effects, etc.) I have a test project that has two tracks. I mute one and leave the other unmuted. I then create a group on their mute buttons. That way, clicking either mute button toggles its state and the state of the other mute button; easy peasy.



Perfect solution!
I didn't know the Group functionality for buttons. I tried it and it solved my problem 100%
Thanks! 

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mettelus
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/09 15:19:40 (permalink)
I have always used exclusive Solo mode, and typically bounce the project to another track, but exclusive Solo should also work with busses (send ref track to one, project to other, with both feeding the main outs).

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smallstonefan
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/09 15:25:35 (permalink)
Glad to help! 
 
Side note - ever compared two plugins or two plugin settings but could not pick one without bias? Put each one in their own pro-channel fx chain and set up the mutes like described. Close your eyes and click a number of times until you no longer know which fx chain is active. Then click the button as many times as you like to toggle between the two until one stands out. 
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stickman393
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/09 20:20:08 (permalink)
++ for SampleMagic AB and also MeldaProduction's MCompare.
Also check out Ian Shepard's PERCEPTION plug-in.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/09 20:22:38 (permalink)
I have found from experience that it is better to not have the reference track anywhere near the DAW at all. But I realise this is not always possible.  I use a digital mixer for example that has multiple 2 track stereo inputs so I have got the CD player connected there.  One button push, DAW goes off CD player is on.  I believe for the best result the time between hearing your mix and the ref track should be instant.  If it takes 10 seconds to hear the ref track then you are sort of not getting the full benefit.
 
The only thing is you need to match rms levels of the ref track to your mix.
 
Another option is to wire up some sort of switch box between your audio interface and your monitors so in one position you have your DAW playing normally and in the other you are hearing the alternate input. (preferbaly on some sort of variable control as well)  If it is a CD player the headphone output is sometimes a good spot to pick up the signal especially if there is a variable output level for the phones.
 
When mastering this is even more important although during mastering it is easier to drag the ref track into the mastering session and solo it too.
 
I am big fan of referencing great tracks that are right in the ball park to what you are trying to mix or master.  They are great for letting you know how far away from greatness you are actually going.  Gets you back on the rails so to speak.  They are good for taking your speakers and room acoustics out of the equation very much so.

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/10 10:21:38 (permalink)
And another + for Magic AB. Simple concept but really efficient and convenient; I like not have to bounce around the timeline looking for specific points in a reference tracks then using exclusive solo go between mix/reference. It's also great because all reference tracks can be volume adjusted individually as well as the master volume for the references, so you don't have to worry about shattering your eardrums. :)

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/10 13:26:55 (permalink)
mettelus
I have always used exclusive Solo mode, and typically bounce the project to another track, but exclusive Solo should also work with busses (send ref track to one, project to other, with both feeding the main outs).

Exclusive solo here as well.  works like a charm

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/10 14:16:53 (permalink)
Edit: There is a flaw in the method I am about to describe (and perhaps others). If you have sends on any of the tracks then read the following post (well read it anyway if you are going read and use my dumfuk advice because I don't wanna mess anyone up).
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3286229
 
OP...
 
==============================================================
 
The way I do it is this...
 
I always insert a "Premaster" bus before the actual Master. All tracks get sent to the Premaster (by way of all the sub busses I create for everything). So it goes like this... Tracks > Sub Group Busses > Premaster > Master > Physical Outputs.
 
I keep my Master bus completely free of any effects and I keep it at 0db Unity gain as I work. I use the Premaster for any master type effects and to adjust levels if need be but generally the premaster is there just to test how my mix will respond to compression/EQ or other mastering type stuff. I am trying more and more to leave it completely clear and rely on the mix then just turn on/fiddle with those effects to get a rough idea of how glue compression and mastering EQ may go down once I get to the mastering stage.
 
Since my Master bus is totally free and clear of all effects and all my tracks go to the Premaster it creates a situation where I can route my reference track(s) main output to the Master and absolutely nothing will be altering the sound.
 
So then all I have to do is keep the reference track muted. Then when I want to compare my current mix to the reference track all I do is SOLO the reference track (which mutes everything else in the project) then unmute it. So it's maybe a one second silence at most as I click the solo/mute button. Not an instantaneous. one click a/b but it really isn't that far off.
 
Since I keep my general output level from the premaster (going into the Master) at around -6db I just have to make sure the reference track is outputting to the Master bus at -6db and it gives a proper relative volume comparison.
 
I actually keep previous mixdowns of the project and reference tracks in the same track within their own lanes. That way I can just solo the lane of the ref track/previous mixdown I want to compare with and use the method described above. This can cause a problem if my exports were -6db exports (for premaster) because then my ref tracks are of course going to be louder than the -6db exports (so with the 6db I removed to get the ref tracks matching my premaster bus level those exports end up outputting at -12db) but that can be worked around by putting the -6db exports in their own track and not lowering the level at all or leaving them in the main ref track and using clip automation to compensate for the volume difference).
 
It's a pretty decent system but I do need to spend some time with Exclusive Solo which I think might make things even smoother... and not just for this application.
post edited by Beepster - 2015/09/14 12:27:45
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/10 14:25:37 (permalink)
And the other main benefit to me of having the Premaster > Master setup is that I can easily add whatever limiter I want easily at any point on the master without worrying about other effects or simply turn up the Gain/Fader to get -0.1db export whenever I want.
 
So basically I can toss a VST limiter in the FX Bin or use the Concrete Limiter or not use a limiter at all or use a Gain boost and just use a limiter as clip protection, etc to increase my levels to -0.1 without ever once worrying about how the limiter is going to affect my signal chain.
 
I don't master in the project though (I create a new project and import the -6db exports into it for mastering). It just makes firing off samples of my work to whoever may need to hear it quick and easy.
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vdd
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/10 14:28:44 (permalink)
Hi everybody, first of all I want to thank for all the information. I think all the tips are great and will help to deal with reference tracks.
I’ve an absolute minimalistic setup. It’s the DAW, some analog synth stuff, and a MPC. For monitoring, I’ve to work with my studio  headphone (closed) and a second one (open) for comparing mixes. My interface has just one line input – but a big volume knob which is very nice in practice. Yes, it is a bad idea to mix without monitor speakers. But I don’t have the space for a bigger setup (WAF) and I decided that mixing with headphones is better than making no music at all. In this situation a reference track is really helpful.
Tonight I will check the plug-ins you recommended. Using external sources sounds promising, but I’ve to upgrade to a reasonable interface (io) first. I will do some notes about my experiences, because it seems to be a typical rookie challenge and some information could help others, too.

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/13 20:23:33 (permalink)
I was going to suggest the group function for the mute/solo button but someone already commented on that.
 
It's easy to set up, use, and then shut off after you're done.

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/13 22:11:30 (permalink)
And on a semi related note, here's something I'm presently investigating that appears quite good:

http://forum.cakewalk.com...ee-Trial-m3285695.aspx

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/14 12:16:53 (permalink)
I just rediscovered a flaw in the method I described earlier. I was aware of it but had forgotten and just got futzed up with it again today so I wanted to make sure I wasn't screwing anyone up.
 
If you have any sends on tracks (like going to a reverb or compression bus or whatever) those will remain audible even when you solo the ref track. That of course blows because you are getting the sound from those busses on top of the soloed ref track.
 
I am not certain (and now REALLY need to investigate it further) but I'm assuming there is a way to use Exclusive Solo to get around this problem.
 
So essentially if you use the method I described earlier in the thread be aware of any sends going to busses. Those busses will need to be muted otherwise you will get bleed from the busses on top of your reference track.
 
Sorry about that.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/15 16:31:16 (permalink)
Like I said earlier the best approach is to not have the reference track anywhere near your DAW. It avoids all possible issues. I have attended a few mastering sessions with top mastering engineers and they all have the ref tracks feeding into other playback stereo inputs on the console.
 
For DAW people something like the Presonus Monitor Station is a good call because it has these extra external inputs and levels can be adjusted as well to match rms levels easily between your mix and the ref track.

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/22 12:30:05 (permalink)
IS this something to consider... i got it :

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Re: How to switch between master and reference track efficiently? (Mute XOR) 2015/09/24 07:38:42 (permalink)
What I do is put a master FX (EZmix) on the master bus. That ca easily be turned on and of. That way I hear the Master mix kind os sound when I mix. But I guest they are just tools for this use. And for a great sound you should get help to do the master. And use real tools. Not just playing tools like EZmix.

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