Helpful ReplyBest way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs,

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fads
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2015/09/28 09:30:08 (permalink)

Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs,

I am looking for the best way to set up a mix.
VOCALS
 I am sending all of the vocals to a Stereo bus called Vocals.  That would have all of the vocals, lead and background going to it.  That way I can control all of the vocals with that one overall fader. 
 
EFFECTS
I also have been making a Stereo bus for effects.  I have an FX chain Preset that I made that includes Reverb, Compressor, VC-64 Vintage channel, and an HF Exciter.  I am sending each vocal to the effects stereo bus.  On the Stereo Bus I am outputting it to the Vocal Bus. 
 
I am outputting the Vocal Bus to the Master.
 
This seems to work, but I am not sure this is the best or most common way to do it.
 
Any suggestions on how you all do it are most appreciated.  Perhaps there is a video that explains it.  I have been looking, but couldn't find anything specific for this.
 
Thanks
 
Thanks
 
 

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#1
BobF
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 09:34:50 (permalink)
Craig posted a link to a best practices document a few days ago.  I downloaded but failed to bookmark.  Maybe he'll repost if he stumbles across this.

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#2
fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 09:37:40 (permalink)
BobF
Craig posted a link to a best practices document a few days ago.  I downloaded but failed to bookmark.  Maybe he'll repost if he stumbles across this.




I'd love to see that.  In the meantime I will look for it.
Thanks

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 09:40:07 (permalink)
I agree in principle with what you're doing, but let's be clear on the terminology:
 
VOCALS
 I am sending all of the vocals to a Stereo bus called Vocals.  That would have all of the vocals, lead and background going to it.  That way I can control all of the vocals with that one overall fader.

 
Do you mean you're inserting a send on each of the vocal tracks or are you directing the track OUTPUT to the vocal bus?
 
This can and will make a HUGE difference.
 
I like to eliminate all ambiguity when talking about sends when it's really the track output that's being discussed.

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#4
fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 11:44:11 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
I agree in principle with what you're doing, but let's be clear on the terminology:
 
VOCALS
I am sending all of the vocals to a Stereo bus called Vocals.  That would have all of the vocals, lead and background going to it.  That way I can control all of the vocals with that one overall fader.

 
Do you mean you're inserting a send on each of the vocal tracks or are you directing the track OUTPUT to the vocal bus?
 
This can and will make a HUGE difference.
 
I like to eliminate all ambiguity when talking about sends when it's really the track output that's being discussed.


In answer to your question, I am directing the output of each of the vocal channels to the vocal bus that I set up.  I have a stereo send on each of the vocal channels going to an effects bus, and the effect bus is going to the vocal bus.  The vocal bus outputs to the Master out.  Is that the wrong way to do it? 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 11:46:05 (permalink)
The only thing I would change would be the destination from your Fx buss - route that one to your master buss

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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 12:15:08 (permalink)
Hi. I agree with the advice given so far. You could also make a bus for your backing vocals. Would be easier to separate the vocals from each other.
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#7
Adq
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 12:57:06 (permalink)
I find it's better to use mix buses and stem buses. For example separate buses for lead vocal, backs, vocal fxs go to Vocal stem bus and then to master. Separate buses for SD, HH, other drums go to Drums stem bus. And so on.
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Paul G
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 13:07:52 (permalink)
If I have vox specific FX, I route that bus to the Vox Sum bus.  That way, if I adjust the level of the Vox Sum I don't have to reset the FX levels. 
 
YMMV

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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 15:03:09 (permalink)
Hi fads,
One quick note: unless you're doing some kind of parallel processing, the VC-64, compressor, and probably HF Exciter likely should be insert FX as opposed to sends. Those are generally 100% wet effects so using a send is the wrong choice there unless you're doing something in parallel.
 
Dean

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/28 15:07:29 (permalink)
I've used the VC64 Channel strip on many a buss with great results

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fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 11:14:02 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
The only thing I would change would be the destination from your Fx buss - route that one to your master buss


OK, but the reason I didn't is because if I mute the vocal bus, the effects from the vocals are still present at the master output.  Maybe i am still doing something wrong?

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fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 11:16:56 (permalink)
Adq
I find it's better to use mix buses and stem buses. For example separate buses for lead vocal, backs, vocal fxs go to Vocal stem bus and then to master. Separate buses for SD, HH, other drums go to Drums stem bus. And so on.


This sounds good and I think I am starting to do this as I have made separate buses for all instruments, Drums, back vocals, etc.
 
I am not sure what a stem bus is, could you please explain?  Thanks

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fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 11:19:25 (permalink)
Razorwit
Hi fads,
One quick note: unless you're doing some kind of parallel processing, the VC-64, compressor, and probably HF Exciter likely should be insert FX as opposed to sends. Those are generally 100% wet effects so using a send is the wrong choice there unless you're doing something in parallel.
 
Dean


Hi Dean, thanks for the input.  By insert FX, does that mean it goes on each channel then?  I am not sure what parallel processing means.
 
Thanks

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Adq
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 11:43:04 (permalink)
fads
I am not sure what a stem bus is, could you please explain?  Thanks

You can find some info by googling "stem mixing".
As I understand it, there are some "final" buses (not many, usually ~8) and sound goes to master only from them, not from tracks, or from other buses.
 
Tracks            Buses                Stems               Master
VocalMain1     VocalMain          Vocal                
VocalMain2     VocalBack
VocalMain3     VocalReverb
VocalBack1
VocalBack2
VocalBack3
 
Stems              Mix                      Master
Vocal               (additional bus  
Guitars             for more control)
Synths
Basses
BD
Drums
 
#15
fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 12:22:04 (permalink)
Getting back to that insert FX that Dean mentioned.  Dean said, One quick note: unless you're doing some kind of parallel processing, the VC-64, compressor, and probably HF Exciter likely should be insert FX as opposed to sends.
 
Should that be on each channel then.  I use the VC-64 on all of the vocals.  I like the way it sounds,  but maybe there is a better way.
 
Thanks again

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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 16:18:42 (permalink)
Hi fads,
It doesn't matter if those FX are on channels or buses, the distinction is whether they are Send FX or Inserts. When you route to an FX send you are sending copy of the signal to a bus and it will eventually be mixed back into the original. So you'll end up hearing both the original AND the output of the effect. That works fine for some effects like reverb or delay, but generally speaking for effects like compression and EQ we only want to hear the output of the effect. For example, if I put an EQ on a signal to remove some unwanted frequencies, I want to use that as an insert instead of a send, because if I end up hearing a combination of the original signal and the effected signal I didn't really remove that unwanted frequency. Same thing applies to compression, de-essing, and (usually) to HF exciters.
 
The exception here is parallel processing. A common technique is to take an signal/track and use a send to create a duplicate of that signal (a "parallel path") which you then use heavy effects on and mix back into the original. Do a bit of research on New York Style compression for a good example.
 
Dean
 
 

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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/29 19:24:14 (permalink)
Razorwit
Hi fads,
It doesn't matter if those FX are on channels or buses, the distinction is whether they are Send FX or Inserts. When you route to an FX send you are sending copy of the signal to a bus and it will eventually be mixed back into the original. So you'll end up hearing both the original AND the output of the effect. That works fine for some effects like reverb or delay, but generally speaking for effects like compression and EQ we only want to hear the output of the effect. For example, if I put an EQ on a signal to remove some unwanted frequencies, I want to use that as an insert instead of a send, because if I end up hearing a combination of the original signal and the effected signal I didn't really remove that unwanted frequency. Same thing applies to compression, de-essing, and (usually) to HF exciters.
 
The exception here is parallel processing. A common technique is to take an signal/track and use a send to create a duplicate of that signal (a "parallel path") which you then use heavy effects on and mix back into the original. Do a bit of research on New York Style compression for a good example.
 
Dean
 
 


Thanks Dean, great information.  I now have a much better understanding what is going on with the signals.  Thanks so much for taking the time to be so clear and explaining in detail.  I will check the parallel processing, and the New York Style compression.  It sounds like a great tool to use.
 
Frank

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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/30 12:53:22 (permalink)
fads
Bristol_Jonesey
The only thing I would change would be the destination from your Fx buss - route that one to your master buss


OK, but the reason I didn't is because if I mute the vocal bus, the effects from the vocals are still present at the master output.  Maybe i am still doing something wrong?




I don't know if this would be considered "common" but I find it helpful. I route ALL of my FX Busses (typically something like...  LVox Verb, BVox Verb, L INST VERB, BG INST Verb, Glue Verb, Delay 1/4, Delay 1/8, Delay Slap etc...) to a "WET" Bus. All other tracks go to "DRY" bus. Then both of those are in turn routed to my master or sub-master BUS. This allows me to quickly A/B the DRY and DRY+WET sounds. It also allows me to mute all the DRY signals so that I can evaluate and "mix" my "space" as a separate entity without affecting any of my DRY signals. I also often split the Reverbs and Delays to  ALL VERB and ALL DELAY buses before sending them to the WET bus.
 
It sounds like you are on the right track. Just keep practicing and when you have one of those "Gee, it would be really nice or helpful if I could just do that" moments, stop and figure out a way to do it. That and use reference mixes all the time. Most people don't get just how quickly our ears adjust and our brains start lying to us about what we are hearing without something to reference.  
 
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fads
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/30 13:32:39 (permalink)
SDCyclist
fads
Bristol_Jonesey
The only thing I would change would be the destination from your Fx buss - route that one to your master buss


OK, but the reason I didn't is because if I mute the vocal bus, the effects from the vocals are still present at the master output.  Maybe i am still doing something wrong?




I don't know if this would be considered "common" but I find it helpful. I route ALL of my FX Busses (typically something like...  LVox Verb, BVox Verb, L INST VERB, BG INST Verb, Glue Verb, Delay 1/4, Delay 1/8, Delay Slap etc...) to a "WET" Bus. All other tracks go to "DRY" bus. Then both of those are in turn routed to my master or sub-master BUS. This allows me to quickly A/B the DRY and DRY+WET sounds. It also allows me to mute all the DRY signals so that I can evaluate and "mix" my "space" as a separate entity without affecting any of my DRY signals. I also often split the Reverbs and Delays to  ALL VERB and ALL DELAY buses before sending them to the WET bus.
 
It sounds like you are on the right track. Just keep practicing and when you have one of those "Gee, it would be really nice or helpful if I could just do that" moments, stop and figure out a way to do it. That and use reference mixes all the time. Most people don't get just how quickly our ears adjust and our brains start lying to us about what we are hearing without something to reference.  
 
Lee


Hi Lee, thanks for the detailed explanation.  That sounds like a plan.  I will put it to work.
Frank

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TheMaartian
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/09/30 14:34:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2015/09/30 15:20:39

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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/10/01 16:30:13 (permalink)
it is worth routing all your busses to a final pre-master (or "sub master" if you prefer that term) bus.
That way you can add final tweaks to the entire mix given that the master bus does not have pro channel or fx sends.
 
If you are not intending to master in Sonar (provide a final product) then it is not essential for mixing to have a pre-master bus as the technical term for that would be "ears"
:)
post edited by Hatstand - 2015/10/01 16:40:23
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Re: Best way to set up mix, Buses, Outputs, 2015/10/03 14:18:57 (permalink)
BobF
Craig posted a link to a best practices document a few days ago.  I downloaded but failed to bookmark.  Maybe he'll repost if he stumbles across this.




Did anyone ever find this? I was searching through his recent posts but couldn't find anything.

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