[CWBRN-40043] Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum

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sklathill
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2015/10/05 14:15:32 (permalink)
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[CWBRN-40043] Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum

Fit Improvisation has been really bugging me... and I have no clue what to do about it... so I recorded a video of what I'm experiencing.
 
Basically, I've found that using Fit Improvisation clearly messes with note lengths and relationships in a detrimental way. Using one of my more advanced Kontakt instruments, I show how a line that was perfectly fine is mangled when using fit to improvisation.
 
It seems like the relationship of note offs and note ons relative to the reference track for the fit improvisation are handled in a totally different manner.

Tried this out in both Gloucester and Ipswich and the behavior is the exact same.

Would appreciate any help anyone can shed on this. :(

https://youtu.be/_r_FzqKG8nU
 
post edited by sklathill - 2015/10/13 21:13:05
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/06 13:53:32 (permalink)
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    Hi Vincent, the root cause of the unintuitive results you're getting is that your guide track is not aligned with the musical part.
     
    The intent of Fit improvisation is that you make a guide track that is representative of the intended musical timing in the other track(s), and use it as a sacrificial reference to set tempos that will align the timeline beats to those points without altering the absolute playback timing of the original performance. In order to do that Fit to Improv has to alter the start times and durations of note events to produce the same absolute timing at the new tempo that each note had at the old tempo.
     
    Set Measure/Beat At Now works the same way on MIDI. But if the guide track isn't perfectly aligned to the musical performance, this is like using SM/BAN with the Now time mislocated at some point away from the intended start time of the note, which is going to cause start times and durations of notes in the other tracks to change in unexpected ways that don't make musical sense, and don't preserve their absolute timing relationships.
     
    To get the result you expect in your demo project, you'll need to do two things:
     
    First, snap the start of the MIDI clip to the timeline beat that it was intended to start on, and enter any guide track events that precede that exactly on their corresponding beats so that the initial tempo is preserved as-is when you execute Fit to Improv.
     
    And second, create your guide track by just copying the original MIDI (with or without changing the durations - Fit to Improv only cares about start times).
     
    Then, after executing Fit to Improv, manually change the initial tempo to match the tempo at the first note you actually performed (or maybe an estimated average of the whole track if you prefer), and delete any other tempos  in between.
     
    Give that a go, and let me know if you still have problems/questions.
     
    P.S. PM me an e-mail address, and I can send you a demo project later.
     
    post edited by brundlefly - 2015/10/06 15:10:14

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    #2
    sklathill
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/06 15:41:08 (permalink)
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    Okay... I think I figured it out.
     
    Yes, if you use the exact MIDI as the reference track, then you'll get the notes hitting every beat.
    Unfortunately, this is not ideal for a lot of more advanced soft synths, especially those with legato samples. In order to properly play them, you actually have to anticipate the next note, because of the sample material that comprises the transition between the previous note and the desired note.
     
    Also... fit improv does take note duration into account and attempts to make it the correct duration for the new tempo. HOWEVER, it seems like it's only using the tempo when the note on actually occurs. So... if the tempo changes to something faster in the middle of the note, then the note length will be too long, and if the tempo changes to something slower, then the note length will be too short.
     
    Because I use a lot of instruments with legato samples where in order to perform them well, I have to significantly anticipate the next note, I have to do all my note ons consistently before the beats...  But with tempo changes being injected with every beat by virtue of the fact that fit improvisation does so, it absolutely will not work for me unless I'm creating my improvisation with a keyboard instrument rather than a string or wind softsynth.
     
    I think if Cakewalk actually calculated the resultant note durations based on all the tempo changes that a given note straddles, rather than just the tempo when the note has started, this feature can work as it should.
     
    I've added another video that reflects my findings.
     
    https://youtu.be/bYCsCyhKhgM
     
    #3
    brundlefly
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/06 18:27:54 (permalink)
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    A few thoughts about your second video and the issue with samples having slow attacks (whether played legato or not) needing to be played ahead of the beat.
     
    First, I was a little surprised how bad the timing got in the first example where you moved the guide track earlier before executing Fit Improv. I suspect that you moved it more than 64 ticks...? In any case, I would guess you'll get better results by moving the musical clip earlier after you Fit Improv with the guide track matching the musical track.
     
    To avoid the problems altogether, I would suggest that you set up the tempo of the piece using an instrument that doesn't have a long attack and record instruments with slow attacks later when you can control the timing and duration to fit the final tempo, including for notes that span tempo changes.
     
    The good news is: I checked Set Measure/Beat At Now, and unlike Fit Improv, it does correctly handle durations of notes that span tempo changes. SM/BAN is by far my preferred method for setting projects to freely played MIDI, anyway, as it's much more flexible in allowing you to set as many or as few points as you need to get a good fit, and setting points that don't fall on beats.
     
    I suggest you go this direction as I would not expect Fit Improv to get any love from the Bakers any time soon. In any case, you'll need to go enter a formal Problem Report here to get the ball rolling:
     
    https://www.cakewalk.com/...Contact/Problem-Report

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    #4
    sklathill
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/06 18:40:33 (permalink)
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    Thanks for your help.
     
    It definitely was just 64 ticks in the video.  Tried it again just to make sure and the results are similar. If anything, If I moved it more than 64 ticks, it would actually be slightly more accurate, because now slightly more of the note is in the "correct" tempo range where the note on is.
     
    I've honestly had issues with the set measure/beat feature in the past, where it would change the size of midi clips, and I'd have to go around and bounce multiple clips to single clips, so it'd be easier to resize them after the set measure does its work. Of course, this was back in Sonar X2 days.... maybe it's better now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqRkGJ1vh-Y
     
    I'll certainly try to contact Cakewalk. I actually tried contact them through there, and I've got an automated acknowledgement e-mail, but I haven't gotten any follow up from them. I'm hoping that they might contact me soon, though!
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/06 19:04:08 (permalink)
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    I've never seen SM/BAN crop a clip  as shown in your video in any version, and I use it a lot. But I was not making a lot of music in the X2 era, so possibly I missed an issue that has since been resolved.
     
    BTW, if you haven't already, you should try using the Tab-to-Notes feature to set the Now time before executing a Set. It's much faster an more precise than clicking with the mouse. Or it can be used in conjunction with a mouse click or other navigation hotkeys to get near the note before Tab or Shift+Tab exactly to the start.
     
    I also have SM/BAN bound to a single hotkey to make the gesture easier.

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    #6
    sklathill
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/06 21:25:00 (permalink)
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    As you might guess, I'm not a fan hitting precisely on beats with any notes, as I rather like putting lots of rubato. I do mostly orchestral work, mostly in a neo-romantic style. :)
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    Doktor Avalanche
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/13 08:57:17 (permalink)
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    If this isn't resolved, is there a CWBRN number for this?

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    sklathill
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/13 14:05:23 (permalink)
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    Yep, problem report created last week, still "under investigation"
    #9
    Doktor Avalanche
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    Re: Issue with Fit Improvisation in Sonar Platinum 2015/10/13 21:01:25 (permalink)
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    Can you put paste it here or prefably put it at the beginning of subject title plz thx.

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