Helpful ReplyIs there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar?

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irvin
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2015/10/07 00:24:17 (permalink)

Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar?

If not, that would be great feature to add! In case someone is not familiar with with the practice (Reaper, ProTools, etc., have it), you place the Playhead anywhere you want to start recording and press 'record'. Then the music starts playing BEFORE the point of recording (where you placed the playhead) by the amount set in the "recording pre-roll" preference. So, if you want to start recording on bar 41 and your pre-roll is set to 2 bars, you place the playhead at bar 41, hit 'record' and your the music starts playing from bar 39, with recording beginning exactly 2 bars later, at bar 41. It makes punching in and out a lot easier. PLEASE!!!
#1
Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 01:09:45 (permalink)
You can do this in SONAR.  In track view, choose Options > On Stop, Rewind to Now Marker. Set the punch points where you want to record, then place the Now time wherever you want the pre-roll to start. Whenever you stop, the Now time will return to where you initially set it to provide the pre-roll.

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irvin
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 02:07:40 (permalink)
Sorry, but it's not nearly the same. I know you can manage with workarounds, but if you have ever used ProTools, Samplitude, Reaper, Logic, etc., you will know it's a very popular and old feature that makes recording much faster, simpler and efficient, because there is just one step (place the playhead wherever you want to start recording) to accomplish the task. Hopefully, Cakewalk will implement it. As it is, I'm using Reaper to record vocals (pre-roll makes it so much faster) but would love to completely move to Sonar, because virtually everything else works nicely!
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mettelus
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 02:26:41 (permalink)
I must admit I have never used punch in/out on a DAW, and any desire for such disappeared completely with speed comping.

I guess I always think of punch in/out as a destructive edit on tape where prior material gets obliterated. In a DAW there is no such thing, so I always loop an area to include the pre/post roll and lop the ends off later.

Am I missing something with punch in/out here?

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Tom Riggs
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 04:05:43 (permalink)
I just watched a youtube video about how to set this up in protools. Honestly I don't see how this is easier to manage than what Craig suggested.
 
It is just a different way to do it.

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KPerry
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 05:13:14 (permalink)
Or just record more than you want and cut out the bit before the "start" time?
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irvin
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 06:55:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kylotan 2015/10/10 10:37:37
Tom Riggs
I just watched a youtube video about how to set this up in protools. Honestly I don't see how this is easier to manage than what Craig suggested.
 
It is just a different way to do it.




Not to be argumentative or anything (and I have no idea what ProTools video you watched), but compare what Craig suggested to this:
 
1. Place playhead anywhere you want.
2. Hit "Record".
 
 
That's it.
 
 
Recording will start automatically at the point  where you placed playhead. No need to set loop points or anything else. It's a feature present in virtually every mainstream DAW out there - for a good reason. 
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fwrend
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 07:22:58 (permalink)
I can see the benefit of the OP's feature request. The only other option would be a manual punch in. Click on the time-line some bars before the punch-in and hit R to punch in (if set to do so in prefs). However, this isn't as accurate. Sometimes the punch-in place has minimal space to punch.

To me, the problem with setting punch-in is that it requires an -out point. Sometimes, I just want to punch-in and keep recording. To do this with auto punch-in is drag the selection past the end of the piece (if needed). With the OPs FR, you just set the cursor at the punch-in point and hit Record.

CA, is there a way to just enter a punch-in point alone? However, I still think this would require more clicks than what the OP is requesting. Hence, I too think it would be a nice feature to incorporate.
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fwrend
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 07:26:50 (permalink)
irvin, you can do a formal request here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspx
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irvin
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 07:39:05 (permalink)
fwrend
To me, the problem with setting punch-in is that it requires an -out point. Sometimes, I just want to punch-in and keep recording. To do this with auto punch-in is drag the selection past the end of the piece (if needed). With the OPs FR, you just set the cursor at the punch-in point and hit Record.



That's exactly the benefit of this feature. I'll do a formal request - thanks for the link.
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BobF
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 08:27:51 (permalink)
mettelus
I must admit I have never used punch in/out on a DAW, and any desire for such disappeared completely with speed comping.

I guess I always think of punch in/out as a destructive edit on tape where prior material gets obliterated. In a DAW there is no such thing, so I always loop an area to include the pre/post roll and lop the ends off later.

Am I missing something with punch in/out here?



I'm with you on this one.

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 08:50:28 (permalink)
mettelus
I must admit I have never used punch in/out on a DAW, and any desire for such disappeared completely with speed comping.

I guess I always think of punch in/out as a destructive edit on tape where prior material gets obliterated. In a DAW there is no such thing, so I always loop an area to include the pre/post roll and lop the ends off later.

Am I missing something with punch in/out here?



Well punch in/out is much faster workflow if you are accurate at it (as you avoid having to spend time topping/tailing it). Horses for courses then.

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fireberd
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 09:00:37 (permalink)
I use punch in to fix things.  But I keep a copy of the original project, so if needed I can revert back to the original.
I just fixed the steel guitar ending on a session yesterday.  Punched in using a footswitch connected to my Frontier Tranzport and played the new ending.  Saved the project as the song name fixed, thus I had the original and fixed projects.
 
I can see the plus of the pre-roll.  I had PT9 for a while but never really got into it and finally dumped it.
post edited by fireberd - 2015/10/07 09:11:51

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#13
Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 12:35:25 (permalink)
irvin
Not to be argumentative or anything (and I have no idea what ProTools video you watched), but compare what Craig suggested to this:
 
1. Place playhead anywhere you want.
2. Hit "Record".

 
Since you need to specify how much pre-roll you want, that would be a separate operation - much like setting the punch points in SONAR. Either way, you have to specify where/how you want something to happen prior to recording.
 
The amount of time I need prior to recording changes...for vocals, it has be long enough to get to the vocal booth, put on the headphones, and start listening. For guitar, I set it so there's enough time to hit the G FORCE button for touching up guitar tuning prior to the punch. In other cases I want a long section beforehand to get into the "groove." So it's important for me to be able to specify the "pre-roll" time as needed, and just placing the now time where I want playback to begin is dead simple. I would think the time you save by not having to set punch points in Pro Tools would be offset in SONAR by not having to go to preferences to set a pre-roll time...six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you need to go into a preferences menu, the PT approach might actually be more time-consuming. (FWIW I always have rewind to now marker checked so I don't need to enable that.) 
 
I can see where the PT option would add convenience under certain conditions if the pre-roll was fixed and you never wanted to change it, but personally, I would classify it as "another option" rather than something that would improve my workflow significantly. Like Mettelus, I've sort of moved beyond standard punching anyway, other than to combine punching with looping for speed comping...best of both worlds.

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Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 12:43:52 (permalink)
fwrend
CA, is there a way to just enter a punch-in point alone?



No, but if the object is to be able to record at will past the punch to anywhere up to the end of the song, select all as the punch point, then move the punch-in to where you want the recording to start. I prefer that to hitting "R" because I usually want to be playing when the punch starts.

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backwoods
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 12:50:33 (permalink)
I only do punch ins and would really like to see this pre roll feature too! Another thing I'd like is what some other daws have - multiple punch in zones. You place multiple markers and they turn the "recording" function on/off as the playhead passes each one- you can rerecord multiple sections of a track in one take that way.
#16
Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 12:55:29 (permalink)
backwoods
Another thing I'd like is what some other daws have - multiple punch in zones. You place multiple markers and they turn the "recording" function on/off as the playhead passes each one- you can rerecord multiple sections of a track in one take that way.



Now, that would be far more useful to me than the pre-roll, because it would eliminate recording for the duration where the punches occur and then having to split/drag the "punched" clips into place. I suspect it would be difficult to implement...but with Noel, you never know 

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irvin
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 13:04:51 (permalink)
Anderton
Since you need to specify how much pre-roll you want, that would be a separate operation - much like setting the punch points in SONAR. Either way, you have to specify where/how you want something to happen prior to recording.

 
Nothing happens before recording. Song starts playing the exact length of the pre-roll before recording begins at the playhead's position. That's the beauty of it: no messing with setting up loop points, entering values or anything else. You can record as much or as little as you want.
 
Anderton
The amount of time I need prior to recording changes...for vocals, it has to be long enough to get to the vocal booth, put on the headphones, and start listening. For guitar, I set it so there's enough time to hit the G FORCE button for touching up guitar tuning prior to the punch. In other cases I want a long section beforehand to get into the "groove."

 
I think you're mis-understanding what "Pre-roll" does or what it's used for. You only use it when actually recording, not during the time used for preparing to record (like putting headphones, getting to the vocal booth, eating a sandwich or hitting G FORCE buttons on a guitar - none of that has anything to do with the actual process of recording...lol...).  
 
Anderton
So it's important for me to be able to specify the "pre-roll" time as needed, so I'd still have to set timing prior to recording using Pro Tools or set timing as punch point with SONAR prior to recording...six of one, half a dozen of the other. If you need to go into a preferences menu, that might actually be more time-consuming. (FWIW I always have rewind to now marker checked so I don't need to enable that.) 

 
It's a one-time thing that literally takes 2 or 3 seconds in Reaper. You don't have to change it every time you record, unless you have very specific reasons for it. It does not change the way you record a take or do punch-ins and punch-outs. 
 
Anderton
On a separate topic, as to punching and being able to record to the end, just select all as the punch point, then move the punch-in to where you want the recording to start. I prefer that to hitting "R" because usually want to be playing when the punch starts.

 
That's the beauty of "pre-roll": you do not need to "select all as the punch point, then move the punch-in to where you want the recording to start". It's much faster than that. Pre-roll also accommodates your preference (it's everybody's preference, actually) of being playing before the punch starts. That has been the way to record since the days of tape.
 
Anderton 
I can see where the PT option would add convenience under certain conditions if the pre-roll was fixed and you never wanted to change it, but personally, I would classify it as "another option" rather than something that would improve my workflow significantly. Like Mettelus, I've sort of moved beyond standard punching anyway, other than to combine punching with looping for speed comping...best of both worlds.



It's a global preference setting (1 bar, 2 bars, whatever). You can set it and leave it alone. I normally use 2 bars to give time to most musicians to play/sing along for a short while (the pre-roll length) before the punch-in takes place. It's a really, really neat and lightning-fast way to do punch-ins and outs on the fly. No need to set loop points or anything else.
 
If you're curious enough, just try the feature in Reaper - it works like a charm. There is a very good and valid reason for all major DAWs to have it (with slight differences in their implementation): it's very effective and widely used.
#18
irvin
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 13:11:52 (permalink)
Just for clarification: Pre-roll is not a "ProTools thing". It's widely implemented by virtually all major DAWs: Logic, Samplitude, ProTools, Reaper, Studio One, etc.
 
#19
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 13:28:27 (permalink)
Well I totally see the OP's point here, and I totally see other people points as well, as it's just another way to do something... the OP here has a point however....
 
1. Place playhead anywhere you want.
2. Hit "Record".
 
That seems pretty useful to me, and no doubt it won't be useful to others. There will be other's who don't need to use it of course, fair enough, but that does not mean the OP request is invalid, esp when other DAW's have implemented (or so it appears).

Anyway as this is a feature to improve workflow (at least for some), I doubt there's ever going to be of much interest internally, as it seems the priority is back to bolting on new features (and USP) so the spec sheet looks good in marketing, rather than improving/fixing existing meat and potatoes, day to day functionality/workflow (we appear to be back to the good 'ole Roland days).
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/07 13:42:57

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Vastman
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 13:59:01 (permalink)
this seems to be a good idea... it is another way of doing things... and a good suggestion... the nice thing about Sonar is there are many ways to do things.  I use the punch in/out periodically and it works great, when combined with loop points... can vamp/"comp" on a new harmony add on for as long as I want...
 
it does take 30 seconds to set up; WOW!  I remember the old patchbay days so this seems quite reasonable to my old brain.  However, adding a user definable automatic pre-roll also sounds great and glad we got a feature request... 
 
Dok... you seem to love to convey your "doubts" about how the bakers conduct their business... You know NOTHING about this and it is a sanctimonious ego drivin opinion you constantly interject into many of your comments...if you look at things narrowly enough, and selectively enough... you can reach any opinion about any thing on this planet...  I think it takes away from any valid points you make. 
 
 
post edited by Vastman - 2015/10/07 14:15:03

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#21
BobF
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 14:27:39 (permalink)
If you haven't already, this feature can be voted at http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3297261

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Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 14:33:06 (permalink)
irvin
I think you're mis-understanding what "Pre-roll" does or what it's used for. You only use it when actually recording, not during the time used for preparing to record (like putting headphones, getting to the vocal booth, eating a sandwich or hitting G FORCE buttons on a guitar - none of that has anything to do with the actual process of recording...lol...).

 
I understand what it does. What I'm saying is I set the punch points, set the Now time to give me sufficient time to do what I need to do, start playback, then go prep while it's playing back so I'm ready when the punch starts.
 
It's a global preference setting (1 bar, 2 bars, whatever). You can set it and leave it alone.

 
See, that's my problem. I have tried this functionality in other DAWs, and overall found it more trouble that it was worth because I would need to go into preferences all the time to adjust the pre-roll for the reasons given above. Now, if someone was engineering for me, it would be a different story because I could tell them when I was ready, and they could start recording with a fixed pre-roll. But except for rare circumstances I record by myself, far away from the computer to avoid computer noise, and out of range of non-wired remotes. So while I can see where a fixed pre-roll time tucked away in preferences could be useful for some people, it's not helpful to me.
 
OTOH punch points combined with loop recording is ideal for what I do...I can have a really long one-time pre-roll, set the loop points to give the optimum amount of pre- and post-roll once I'm in the overdubbing process, and lay down punch after punch. 
 

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 14:40:31 (permalink)
Vastman
Dok... you seem to love to convey your "doubts" about how the bakers conduct their business... You know NOTHING about this and it is a sanctimonious ego drivin opinion you constantly interject into many of your comments...if you look at things narrowly enough, and selectively enough... you can reach any opinion about any thing on this planet...  I think it takes away from any valid points you make.  


Read my comment again, I've said nothing about how Cakewalk conducts it's business. My views are simply from what has been released so far on Platinum. It's no big surprise you disagree with it, the only thing I would add is that, unlike you, I'm not going to yak on about how invalid your opinion is, as everybody is entitled to one.

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#24
Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 14:47:15 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
...rather than improving/fixing existing meat and potatoes, day to day functionality/workflow (we appear to be back to the good 'ole Roland days).



You're entitled to your own opinion, but the hundreds of fixes between the last X3 update and now have been specifically about improving/fixing existing meat and potatoes elements of the program. As to workflow, that's been the point of many new features...Mix Recall, VocalSync, clip export, relative video path, drum replacement, the new control bar, FX stacking, expandable sends, and synth recording all come to mind as features that either save time or simplify workflow.
 
If you think there's a resemblance to the "good 'old Roland days," install X2 and the X2a update for a reality check 

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#25
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 15:03:54 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
Well I totally see the OP's point here, and I totally see other people points as well, as it's just another way to do something... the OP here has a point however....
 
1. Place playhead anywhere you want.
2. Hit "Record".
 
That seems pretty useful to me, and no doubt it won't be useful to others. There will be other's who don't need to use it of course, fair enough, but that does not mean the OP request is invalid, esp when other DAW's have implemented (or so it appears).

Anyway as this is a feature to improve workflow (at least for some), I doubt there's ever going to be of much interest internally, as it seems the priority is back to bolting on new features (and USP) so the spec sheet looks good in marketing, rather than improving/fixing existing meat and potatoes, day to day functionality/workflow (we appear to be back to the good 'ole Roland days).


Anderton
You're entitled to your own opinion, but here are some facts. The hundreds of fixes between the last X3 update and now have been specifically about improving/fixing existing meat and potatoes elements of the program. As to workflow, that's been the point of many new features...Mix Recall, VocalSync, clip export, relative video path, drum replacement, the new control bar, FX stacking, expandable sends, and synth recording all come to mind as features that either save time or simplify workflow.
 
If you think there's a resemblance to the "good 'old Roland days," install X2 and the X2a update for a reality check 


I've put my full quote back in Craig, you edited out the bit where I mentioned USP and spec sheet. Most of the features you've quoted are clearly tailored towards exactly that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that any of it should not have been done. It's always a temptation to polarise the argument on the internet to get bonus points.. There is other stuff Cakewalk has done well that you haven't mentioned.

But in the meantime the same old dull but essential functionality used in day to day workflow gets overlooked year after year, probably because it's not going to create a marketing bullet point. I think think you've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/07 15:16:21

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#26
irvin
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 15:04:09 (permalink)
Anderton
irvin
I think you're mis-understanding what "Pre-roll" does or what it's used for. You only use it when actually recording, not during the time used for preparing to record (like putting headphones, getting to the vocal booth, eating a sandwich or hitting G FORCE buttons on a guitar - none of that has anything to do with the actual process of recording...lol...).

 
I understand what it does. What I'm saying is I set the punch points, set the Now time to give me sufficient time to do what I need to do, start playback, then go prep while it's playing back so I'm ready when the punch starts.
 
It's a global preference setting (1 bar, 2 bars, whatever). You can set it and leave it alone.

 
See, that's my problem. I have tried this functionality in other DAWs, and overall found it more trouble that it was worth because I would need to go into preferences all the time to adjust the pre-roll for the reasons given above. Now, if someone was engineering for me, it would be a different story because I could tell them when I was ready, and they could start recording with a fixed pre-roll. But except for rare circumstances I record by myself, far away from the computer to avoid computer noise, and out of range of non-wired remotes. So while I can see where a fixed pre-roll time tucked away in preferences could be useful for some people, it's not helpful to me.
 
OTOH punch points combined with loop recording is ideal for what I do...I can have a really long one-time pre-roll, set the loop points to give the optimum amount of pre- and post-roll once I'm in the overdubbing process, and lay down punch after punch. 
 




 
I don't think you are 'understanding' what the feature is meant to do or how it works. Once again, it has nothing to do with "go prep while it's playing". It's a simple way of recording quickly and accurately - but you probably know that ;-) 
 
Oh, well...until then, it's Reaper for recording. 
 
 
post edited by irvin - 2015/10/07 15:15:12
#27
Anderton
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/07 21:29:51 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
I've put my full quote back in Craig, you edited out the bit where I mentioned USP and spec sheet. Most of the features you've quoted are clearly tailored towards exactly that.

 
I wasn't arguing they wouldn't look good on a spec sheet, so no need to quote. I was referring to my belief that the enhancements I mentioned are indeed designed to improve workflow, and fixes are indeed fixing long-standing issues that have been around for a long time. You can certainly say they're not being fixed fast enough for your taste, or you can bring up drum maps again, but you can't say that long-standing issues are not being addressed. Even the staff view enthusiasts recognize that fixes are being made to functionality that hasn't been touched in years (and years).

There is other stuff Cakewalk has done well that you haven't mentioned.

 
In the spirit of what I quoted, I was restricting myself to workflow-related features.

But in the meantime the same old dull but essential functionality used in day to day workflow gets overlooked year after year, probably because it's not going to create a marketing bullet point. I think think you've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.



Like drum maps?  But I've been around here long enough to see that those issues are being addressed, in tandem with new features and enhancements to existing ones. I can certainly agree that it would be nice if the pace of revising old stuff could go faster, but I've also been around here long enough to know how many people are available to work on SONAR, how many hours there are in a day, and the number of people complaining that their preferred feature requests aren't being implemented and would prefer those over functions they may or may not care about. It's all about balance. 
 
I know you would be happy if all Cakewalk did for the next year was work on stability and didn't introduce new features. I understand that thinking. But I believe if CW did that, they'd go out of business because of all the "ReaProBaseOneLive has THIS feature, why doesn't SONAR?" people who are primarily interested in new features and don't encounter issues that affect them.

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#28
TStorms
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Re: Is there a recording pre-roll equivalent in Sonar? 2015/10/29 17:34:24 (permalink)
+1 - implement pre-roll function

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#29
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