Helpful ReplyNative Kontrol Standard

Page: < 12 Showing page 2 of 2
Author
Post
Essentials Only Full Version
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/03 18:19:39 (permalink)
0
Notecrusher
azslow3
DAW integration is not Cakewalk's task in this case. At least till there is no required specification from NI (and I guess that is not going to happened). NI can do it since the specification from Cakewalk exists.

Are you sure?

Almost.
 
Note that we are speaking about 2 different integrations:
1. Extending VST plug-ins (Rapture Pro) to play nicely under NKS. That is Cakewalk task and
KPerry
From http://createdigitalmusic.com/2015/04/komplete-kontrol-now-plays-nice-plug-ins-hosts-coming/
 
"...so you’ll need to be a plug-in maker with access to NI’s developer tools to exploit those parameter controls"
 
And from Ableton Forum: https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=217967
 
"Is on the developers side to adopt or not the NKS standard, not on NI, if developer is interested it gets in contact with NI and gets the SDK."

that is the way to go for them. Note that my personal opinion is that calling proprietary API from one company, which they do not even open to everyone (we are talking about ~100 lines IDL file!) "a standard" is well described in one of KVR threads about that topic...
 
2. Integration of NI Kontrol software with the DAW (Sonar). I do not know either NI SDK includes some information about that part, most probably not (if it is for plug-in developers). But in any case, that is not the task for Cakewalk to support in there DAW whatever devices someone invent. Using the same words:
"Is on the developers side to adopt or not the Cakewalk CS standard, not on Cakewalk, if developer is interested it can get the SDK from GitHub."

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#31
Notecrusher
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 579
  • Joined: 2004/02/17 00:32:14
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/03 20:30:34 (permalink)
+1 (1)
azslow3
But in any case, that is not the task for Cakewalk to support in there DAW whatever devices someone invent. 




Disagree. Sonar users deserve the same advanced host integration that is supported in the other leading DAW's -- Live, Cubase/Nuendo, and Logic that enables track navigation, automatic track focus, and automatic record arming w/ NI's keyboards and Maschine. We are not talking about "whatever" devices, nor are we talking about "someone", we are talking about an industry leader, regardless of your personal opinion of Native Instruments.
 
This is not a finger pointing exercise. If it's NI that must enable the integration I will bang on NI. If it's Cakewalk, I'll bang on Cakewalk. I just want it done so Sonar users w/ NI hardware can enjoy the same benefits as users of rival DAW's.
post edited by Notecrusher - 2015/11/03 20:41:53
#32
KPerry
Max Output Level: -44 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3120
  • Joined: 2011/04/26 15:13:15
  • Location: London, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/04 03:58:46 (permalink)
+1 (1)
azslow3
 
2. Integration of NI Kontrol software with the DAW (Sonar). I do not know either NI SDK includes some information about that part, most probably not (if it is for plug-in developers). But in any case, that is not the task for Cakewalk to support in there DAW whatever devices someone invent. Using the same words:
"Is on the developers side to adopt or not the Cakewalk CS standard, not on Cakewalk, if developer is interested it can get the SDK from GitHub."




I don't interpret it that way - the developers here are Cakewalk.  I think you'll find that other DAW companies write the control surface integrations, they do not expect the control surface manufacturers do do so.
 
Cakewalk providing an API for this may be nice, but it's not working in terms of getting controller manufacturers on board.
#33
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/04 06:00:02 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Notecrusher
This is not a finger pointing exercise. If it's NI that must enable the integration I will bang on NI. If it's Cakewalk, I'll bang on Cakewalk. I just want it done so Sonar users w/ NI hardware can enjoy the same benefits as users of rival DAW's.

At least you can ask them what they propose. We know what Cakewalk propose in that respect, but we do not know the NI point of view.
 
KPerry
I don't interpret it that way - the developers here are Cakewalk.  I think you'll find that other DAW companies write the control surface integrations, they do not expect the control surface manufacturers do do so.

I have tried to find that, but I have found nothing. There are several variants:
a) surface producer publish the specification, so a kind of "API" for the device. Examples are Mackie, Akai, (recently) Novation. In that case DAW producers (or users) have the way to integrate such device.
b) device producers are not opening the specification, but supporting some DAW on there own. For example Nektar Impact, Automap.
c) device producer is not publishing the specification and is not providing "deep" support for particular DAW/Device combination. NI Kontrol, Nektar Panorama.
 
So you claim Avid, Steinberg etc. have special team which is waiting which new devices of kind (c) is produced and jump to support it. That looks questionable for me.
 
Notecrusher
We are not talking about "whatever" devices, nor are we talking about "someone", we are talking about an industry leader, regardless of your personal opinion of Native Instruments.

The fact that ALL these devices are almost the same in hardware has nothing to do with my opinion. I agree that they have leading position is some SOFTWARE. And that is the problem. As with long discussed problem with Machine and Sonar, Cakewalk has no chance to modify the CODE from NI.
 
Technically:
* as soon as it is know what some button/encoder/fader/display sends/expect, it is possible to support it in Sonar. Who should do this is another question. Can be Cakewalk, you or me.
* if we do not know HOW to do something we can not do it. For example, I know how to find synth related to particular track in Sonar. I can try to do the reversed operation (which is not going to be 1to1, there can be several MIDI tracks and Audio output track). But I do not know how to convince S-Control switch focused instance. And so I can not do that "integrations".
 
Note that transport controls and some other simple functions are directly mappable (according to NI documentation and BitWig scripts). So we are talking about "advanced" operations only.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#34
Notecrusher
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 579
  • Joined: 2004/02/17 00:32:14
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/04 17:34:51 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Okay, WAY too much speculation going on here. I'll try to find out who is responsible for implementing the advanced host integration supported in the other leading DAW's, NI or the DAW vendor...
#35
mudgel
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 12010
  • Joined: 2004/08/13 00:56:05
  • Location: Linton Victoria (Near Ballarat)
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/05 03:18:00 (permalink)
+1 (1)
It's a bit like the Control Surface support in Sonar. Cakewalk have made it available as Open Source. Isn't that like throwing up their arms and saying well we don't have any hardware so if you want integration with 3rd party hardware you'll have to do it yourself.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cakewalk is quickly becoming the only DAW that has no hardware connection and really doesn't support any.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64,
PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz.
Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2.
Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub.
Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX.
Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor.
Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
#36
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/05 06:33:44 (permalink)
0
mudgel
It's a bit like the Control Surface support in Sonar. Cakewalk have made it available as Open Source. Isn't that like throwing up their arms and saying well we don't have any hardware so if you want integration with 3rd party hardware you'll have to do it yourself.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Making something Open Source does not mean "throwing up there arms". Note, that they have open Source SDK for much longer time then they do not have hardware. They have moved it to GitHub with more real world examples, but I for example have started using it bofore
2. From some point VST SDK is also possible to download as open source. That does not mean it is dead, that does not mean Steinberg is responsible for providing VST automation support in every DAW. And I see it as a better move then what NI does with NKS.
 

Cakewalk is quickly becoming the only DAW that has no hardware connection and really doesn't support any.

I agree with the first part, but not with the second.
I put a lot of my time into that. And my conclusion is short: most people who claim "Sonar does not support controlley XY" are not ready to spend a single hour nor single cent for that. Those who are interested in getting the result, normally get it (from me, from CakeWalk... who cares?).
 
You can find my Mackie Control post in the near. There was several discussion that since Sonar X, Mackie EQ/Dyn buttons do not produce expected result. Let see how many answers I can get publishing information that is fixed. My guess it will be close (or equal) zero.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#37
Notecrusher
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 579
  • Joined: 2004/02/17 00:32:14
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/05 18:05:14 (permalink)
+1 (1)
azslow3
most people who claim "Sonar does not support controlley XY" are not ready to spend a single hour nor single cent for that. 



Those are two completely different things. The first case is fine -- sure, e.g. Bitwig has a javascript API and many third parties have written controller support and most have offered it free. BUT THAT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE for the DAW vendor supporting the most important protocols. ONCE AGAIN, in the case of the NI controllers we have all the leading DAW's supporting them except Sonar. I have contacted NI support. If it's NI's omission, okay, I'll pound on NI, but I suspect it's Cakewalk's.
 
As to the second point, customers are spending lots of cents on Sonar and have a right to expect it to be up to snuff w/ its competitors. If it's NI that is stiffing Sonar, I will report it here so there is no misunderstanding, but as I said, I suspect it's Cakewalk's lack of effort. We shall see...
#38
SGodfrey
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 268
  • Joined: 2012/03/27 14:13:57
  • Location: Bures, Suffolk. UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/06 06:19:16 (permalink)
0
It would be great to get Cakewalk's view on all of this, particularly since they're working on Rapture Session for the next Sonar release and that allows you to "Quickly search and preview different sounds from realistic pianos to soaring synths".  To me, that seems like very similar territory to Komplete Kontrol.
Thanks to all for the great debate on this and particularly to Azslow3 because I didn't know about your AZ Controller.  I do now and I noticed that Jim Roseberry recommended it for Maschine and Komplete Kontrol keyboards.  I shall certainly be checking this out.

Sonar Platinum x64
Cakewalk UA-25EX
Asus X556UA-DM898T i7-7500U 8GB 1TB, Windows 10 Home
Komplete 11 Ultimate, Kontrol S49, Maschine Jam, Mikro mk2, Arturia V Collection 4
#39
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/06 12:10:30 (permalink)
0
Notecrusher
azslow3
most people who claim "Sonar does not support controlley XY" are not ready to spend a single hour nor single cent for that. 



Those are two completely different things. The first case is fine -- sure, e.g. Bitwig has a javascript API and many third parties have written controller support and most have offered it free. BUT THAT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE for the DAW vendor supporting the most important protocols. ONCE AGAIN, in the case of the NI controllers we have all the leading DAW's supporting them except Sonar. I have contacted NI support. If it's NI's omission, okay, I'll pound on NI, but I suspect it's Cakewalk's.
 
As to the second point, customers are spending lots of cents on Sonar and have a right to expect it to be up to snuff w/ its competitors. If it's NI that is stiffing Sonar, I will report it here so there is no misunderstanding, but as I said, I suspect it's Cakewalk's lack of effort. We shall see...

Since you have mentioned Bitwig... In case support in Bitwig is what you want, I can implement the same for sonar (this JS script is open).
 
As SGodfrey has noticed, I am offering integration with Sonar for any device. Also some other users have contributed interesting solutions. But there are 2 pre-requirements for that: someone has to be ready spend the time at least for testing the result and the protocol should be known. It is already hard to make good preset for a device which I have seen on pictures only, and it is impossible to do that in case I have no info how to communicate.
 
So in case you can get clear answer under which conditions NI is providing required documentation/tools, it can be possible to integrate it. By me, Cakewalk or someone else is a different question.
 
Note about money. Significant part of money you have paid to NI for the controller are for the software. As you can guess, not a single cent went to Cakewalk. It is like you pay for new Auto Radio and complain to particular auto producer you can not integrate it, with arguments "it is good radio from leading company" and "it is possible to install it into many other autos". MIDI Keyboards are build to be used with DAWs, not reversed. And if someone introduce "new protocol", there should be clear way to get it. I repeat, we are talking about one-two pages of text.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#40
ØSkald
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1248
  • Joined: 2010/12/22 16:52:47
  • Location: Norway
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/07 19:54:06 (permalink)
0
I think this standard could be the next "mackie" standard for master keyboards!

Asus TUF Z370-Pro Gaming, Bugera Trirec Infinium, Cakewalk Platinum, Corsair RM750 750W, Corsair Vengeance DDR4 4x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 960 2GB, Genelec 6010A with 5040A sub, Ibanez AEG10II BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR27E BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR28FE BK, Ibanez RG550 RF, Ibanez RG570 FMCS, Ibanez SR506 BM, Intel Core i7 8700K, USB, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate with Kontrol S61, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD, Samsung SSDs 840 EVO 1TB, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, Toontrack EZMix 2, Toontrack Superior Drummer 3, UA Apollo Twin Duo, Windows 10 Pro
#41
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/08 14:56:53 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
I think this standard could be the next "mackie" standard for master keyboards!

Only if they publish it, both sides, for free. So that it works not only within Kontakt but with any DAW and with any keyboard.
 
"Native Kontrol Standard" is at the moment proprietary, unknown, internal "standard" within NI only. Other plug-in producers can support it so they cooperate with NI products (hardware and software) only.
 
Note that I have not seen Mackie Control or HUI protocols was ever claimed as a "standard" by Mackie. In that respect, Mackie is the standard de facto. The word "Standard" in NKS is just a word from registered trade mark, it has no conventional meaning.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#42
Notecrusher
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 579
  • Joined: 2004/02/17 00:32:14
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/09 01:42:32 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
I think this standard could be the next "mackie" standard for master keyboards!

 
NKS is the API for NI controllers, which have a unique set of features. It allows VSTi's to work with and leverage those features. It could possibly develop into a general standard for controllers/keyboards but it's not that now.
 
post edited by Notecrusher - 2015/11/09 01:57:52
#43
ØSkald
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1248
  • Joined: 2010/12/22 16:52:47
  • Location: Norway
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 10:51:18 (permalink)
0
I hope it could. And it should.
I don't se why NI should give this away for free, when every other company license out their inventions for money. This thing is a huge step for keyboards and workflow.

Asus TUF Z370-Pro Gaming, Bugera Trirec Infinium, Cakewalk Platinum, Corsair RM750 750W, Corsair Vengeance DDR4 4x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 960 2GB, Genelec 6010A with 5040A sub, Ibanez AEG10II BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR27E BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR28FE BK, Ibanez RG550 RF, Ibanez RG570 FMCS, Ibanez SR506 BM, Intel Core i7 8700K, USB, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate with Kontrol S61, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD, Samsung SSDs 840 EVO 1TB, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, Toontrack EZMix 2, Toontrack Superior Drummer 3, UA Apollo Twin Duo, Windows 10 Pro
#44
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4294
  • Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 11:15:27 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
I hope it could. And it should.
I don't se why NI should give this away for free, when every other company license out their inventions for money. This thing is a huge step for keyboards and workflow.


It won't however..

It's time companies banged their heads together and developed open source standards...
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/12 11:26:36

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
#45
ØSkald
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1248
  • Joined: 2010/12/22 16:52:47
  • Location: Norway
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 13:33:42 (permalink)
0
Doktor Avalanche
Jarsve
I hope it could. And it should.
I don't se why NI should give this away for free, when every other company license out their inventions for money. This thing is a huge step for keyboards and workflow.


It won't however..

It's time companies banged their heads together and developed open source standards...

Yeah. But that's utopia right. We musicians should also give our music out for free. Right?
 
The world doesn’t work that way.
post edited by Jarsve - 2015/11/12 13:44:44

Asus TUF Z370-Pro Gaming, Bugera Trirec Infinium, Cakewalk Platinum, Corsair RM750 750W, Corsair Vengeance DDR4 4x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 960 2GB, Genelec 6010A with 5040A sub, Ibanez AEG10II BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR27E BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR28FE BK, Ibanez RG550 RF, Ibanez RG570 FMCS, Ibanez SR506 BM, Intel Core i7 8700K, USB, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate with Kontrol S61, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD, Samsung SSDs 840 EVO 1TB, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, Toontrack EZMix 2, Toontrack Superior Drummer 3, UA Apollo Twin Duo, Windows 10 Pro
#46
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 13:46:46 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
I hope it could. And it should.
I don't se why NI should give this away for free, when every other company license out their inventions for money.

May be because that is far from "invention"? (http://hackaday.com/2013/10/08/led-guided-piano-instruction/)
May be because CakeWalk give for free the way to integrate any device with Sonar?
May be because Mackie had big success with the "protocol" because it is published for free?
 
And I repeat one more time, we are speaking about less then 100 lines  (not 100k lines!) of IDL, which they can declare as "use it as you want" or "pay to use it" as it looks like they do now...

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#47
ØSkald
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1248
  • Joined: 2010/12/22 16:52:47
  • Location: Norway
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 16:35:22 (permalink)
0
Its not only the light guide. But names on the rotary knobs and light guide showing what is sound and not. What is snare drum and what is kick etc. You dont need to set up the rotary knobs. It not only show you what you edit, but also how far your going. Every of the 8 rotary knobs has their own little screens showing this. You should try it before judging it!

Asus TUF Z370-Pro Gaming, Bugera Trirec Infinium, Cakewalk Platinum, Corsair RM750 750W, Corsair Vengeance DDR4 4x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 960 2GB, Genelec 6010A with 5040A sub, Ibanez AEG10II BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR27E BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR28FE BK, Ibanez RG550 RF, Ibanez RG570 FMCS, Ibanez SR506 BM, Intel Core i7 8700K, USB, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate with Kontrol S61, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD, Samsung SSDs 840 EVO 1TB, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, Toontrack EZMix 2, Toontrack Superior Drummer 3, UA Apollo Twin Duo, Windows 10 Pro
#48
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 18:13:13 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
Its not only the light guide. But names on the rotary knobs and light guide showing what is sound and not. What is snare drum and what is kick etc. You dont need to set up the rotary knobs. It not only show you what you edit, but also how far your going. Every of the 8 rotary knobs has their own little screens showing this. You should try it before judging it!

I am not judging the unit! I do not own it, but I have shortly touched it. Looks and feels pretty good indeed!
 
But I have not found any breaking technology which can pretend to be a standard and is sufficiently innovative to declare it private and a subject to license:
 
1) showing parameter name and value on display near knob is at least as old as VST (open!) standard. You don't need to set up these because someone has done that for you. But try to work with not yet supported by NI VST, and you are at the same point as with ACT/Automap/etc. No special VST extension is required to implement that.
 
2) light on keys require some additional interface, but it can be as simple as:
class IKeyLight {
  void SetLight(UINT from_key, UINT to_key, UINT color);
  void GetLight(UIN from_key, UINT to_key, UINT *colors);
};
If plug-in support this (I mean exactly this!) interface and there is some way to send the information to the keyboard (for example with SysEx), it is possible to control lights from plug-in. Do you see something to hide even under NDA or registration in these 4 lines?
 
3) browsing is specific thing. VST standard has "presets" only (and Sonar support "named presets" for plug-ins and switching them from ANY keyboard/controller!). Changing/replacing current plug-in is DAW specific. NI play "VST host" role there and has it's way. Sonar also support the same, its own way. And so all other DAWs.
 
So, what you think should become "future standard" for plug-ins and why?

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#49
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4294
  • Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/12 21:07:18 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
I hope it could. And it should.
I don't se why NI should give this away for free, when every other company license out their inventions for money. This thing is a huge step for keyboards and workflow.


Doktor Avalanche
It won't however..

It's time companies banged their heads together and developed open source standards...


Jarsve
Yeah. But that's utopia right. We musicians should also give our music out for free. Right?
 
The world doesn’t work that way.


Either I'm not understanding your point or you're not understanding what open source is. It's not freeware. Cheers..
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/12 21:18:04

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
#50
Notecrusher
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 579
  • Joined: 2004/02/17 00:32:14
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/13 19:02:57 (permalink)
0
This is silly. NI wants vendors to support NKS. They are not charging a licensing fee. But there's no indication they are going to turn NKS into a MIDI-like hardware-independent standard. They view Maschine and the Komplete Kontrol keyboards as products that have market leading features -- which in many respects they are. They want to leverage that through s/w vendor support so they can sell more h/w.
#51
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/13 20:18:31 (permalink)
0
Notecrusher
This is silly. NI wants vendors to support NKS. They are not charging a licensing fee.

Have you found any useful links about the topic with practical information?
 
Let say someone wants support NKS in own plug-in. How to proceed, under which conditions?
 
For me more interesting question is "someone wants support Kontrol is some DAW, how to proceed?", but that is different question which most probably has different answer.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#52
Notecrusher
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 579
  • Joined: 2004/02/17 00:32:14
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/14 15:56:12 (permalink)
0
azslow3
Notecrusher
This is silly. NI wants vendors to support NKS. They are not charging a licensing fee.

Have you found any useful links about the topic with practical information?
 
Let say someone wants support NKS in own plug-in. How to proceed, under which conditions?
 
For me more interesting question is "someone wants support Kontrol is some DAW, how to proceed?", but that is different question which most probably has different answer.




I've been in dialog w/ NI support and am still trying to get answers. It's the usual problem -- CS people don't really have developer knowledge so things move slowly and take persistence. But the dialog is pertaining to "advanced host control" as discussed here previously, not NKS.
#53
ØSkald
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1248
  • Joined: 2010/12/22 16:52:47
  • Location: Norway
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/15 07:24:17 (permalink)
0
Doktor Avalanche
Jarsve
I hope it could. And it should.
I don't se why NI should give this away for free, when every other company license out their inventions for money. This thing is a huge step for keyboards and workflow.


Doktor Avalanche
It won't however..

It's time companies banged their heads together and developed open source standards...


Jarsve
Yeah. But that's utopia right. We musicians should also give our music out for free. Right?
 
The world doesn’t work that way.


Either I'm not understanding your point or you're not understanding what open source is. It's not freeware. Cheers..

I'm just saying that they have to protect their investment. Giving all blueprints away may destroy their sales of hardware.

Asus TUF Z370-Pro Gaming, Bugera Trirec Infinium, Cakewalk Platinum, Corsair RM750 750W, Corsair Vengeance DDR4 4x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 960 2GB, Genelec 6010A with 5040A sub, Ibanez AEG10II BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR27E BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR28FE BK, Ibanez RG550 RF, Ibanez RG570 FMCS, Ibanez SR506 BM, Intel Core i7 8700K, USB, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate with Kontrol S61, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD, Samsung SSDs 840 EVO 1TB, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, Toontrack EZMix 2, Toontrack Superior Drummer 3, UA Apollo Twin Duo, Windows 10 Pro
#54
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4294
  • Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/15 16:32:33 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
I'm just saying that they have to protect their investment. Giving all blueprints away may destroy their sales of hardware.


Not sure what you mean. Developing open source standards would not require giving away hardware blueprints. They would come in the form of an abstraction layer or common code to be used everywhere (ie process management). Code used to run their hardware of course would not be made open source.


The main problem we have nowadays is that these firms are competing to be THE STANDARD much like betamax vs VHS. Sadly it really never happens. Last time real acceptance got adopted across the board was the VST standard. All we seem to get nowadays are multiple standards that mostly do the same thing and are propriety, Not very efficient.

Look at ARA integration for instance. Only melodyne and Cakewalk seem to be supporting it.

Ta.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/15 16:49:08

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
#55
ØSkald
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1248
  • Joined: 2010/12/22 16:52:47
  • Location: Norway
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/15 17:30:48 (permalink)
0
They are letting others use their API.

Asus TUF Z370-Pro Gaming, Bugera Trirec Infinium, Cakewalk Platinum, Corsair RM750 750W, Corsair Vengeance DDR4 4x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 960 2GB, Genelec 6010A with 5040A sub, Ibanez AEG10II BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR27E BK, Ibanez Iron Label RGIR28FE BK, Ibanez RG550 RF, Ibanez RG570 FMCS, Ibanez SR506 BM, Intel Core i7 8700K, USB, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate with Kontrol S61, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe SSD, Samsung SSDs 840 EVO 1TB, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, Toontrack EZMix 2, Toontrack Superior Drummer 3, UA Apollo Twin Duo, Windows 10 Pro
#56
azslow3
Max Output Level: -42.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3297
  • Joined: 2012/06/22 19:27:51
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/15 17:44:04 (permalink)
0
Jarsve
They are letting others use their API.

As you can find in several my posts, "they are letting..." is the only known statement. Can you as a customer get the API? What means "a partner" in terms of agreement?
 
Sure they "are letting", it will be 2x more fanny in case they put title "Standard" on something they never show anyone
But in case somewhere in the license there is simple statement "to be used with NI products only", that was with "the standard" then. That means the standard is NI INTERNAL (equivalent to useless for anyone without NI keyboard/controllers, my guess the majority of users).

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#57
auto_da_fe
Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1866
  • Joined: 2004/08/04 21:32:18
  • Status: offline
Re: Native Kontrol Standard 2015/11/29 08:32:37 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I will add my vote for NKS support.
 
JR

HP DV6T - 2670QM, 8 GB RAM,
Sonar Platypus,  Octa Capture, BFD2 & Jamstix3, Komplete 10 and Komplete Kontrol
Win 10 64 
SLS PS8R Monitors and KRK Ergo
https://soundcloud.com/airportface
#58
alseger
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6
  • Joined: 2008/06/26 02:14:06
  • Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
  • Status: offline
Native Instruments nks support 2016/01/03 19:29:11 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I just bought a new Native Instruments S88 keyboard with transport controls for some DAWs  but unfortunately, not yet compatible with Sonar. Please adopt the new nks standard into Sonar transport controls and plugins.
post edited by alseger - 2016/01/03 19:42:28

MyMusic - Listen at your own risk


#59
Page: < 12 Showing page 2 of 2
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1