Clip Automation Envelope: Copy/Paste series of Nodes to new location on same clip?

I swear guys, I really am trying my damndoodlenest to get my head wrapped around automation in Sonar but any time I try to do anything I seem to hit a wall.
 
This time what I want to do is simply select an envelope shape I've created and copy/drag it down the timeline a few times (so essentially repeating the same automation action). It's a simple Clip Gain move to produce silence on a guitar track at some very breif moments where I stop playing. Gating would suck, Mute Tool won't give me the fades I want, deleting the silence or creating splits would wreck my perfect take/one clip set up (and I don't want to bounce it).
 
Of course I will do what I have to to make the effect I am going for happen but I would REALLY like to just do a Lasso or Range select of the nodes (and the shape of the lines) and copy drag them down the timeline (or paste them) into all the other spots where the silence occurs (and then maybe copy the entire envelope or at laeast that section to it's double track... it's a doubled rhythm guit part).
 
Copy Special does not seem to work because it refuses to allow me to only select the automation nodes (if I uncheck Events it auto uncheck the automation as well).
 
I've tried all sorts of the obvious stuff and been hunting around for a way to do this (to the point freaking Google gave me an "unusual traffic" block on my IP. F*ckers, that was a new one to me and very annoying).
 
Anyway, I of course have many other ways to do this or may just have to do each and every Gain drop by hand but on the off chance there IS a way to copy a bunch of nodes/an envelope shape and paste it elsewhere I would very much like to know. This is a simple enough shape (so doing it manually will be a pain but not a huge deal) but I could see me wanting to copy/drag more complex shapes in the future.
 
I'm hoping now with this new (awesome) implementation of the Track to Track routing stuff seemingly completed maybe the the Bakers can work on some automation improvements. This seems a lot harder than it needs to be.
 
Thanks for any input and sorry I haven't been around. I screwed up one of my fingers (which made it very painful to type let alone play guit) so I've been trying to let it heal.
 
Cheers.

Bristol_Jonesey
Just make sure in Track View, options > Select Track Envelopes With Clkips" is checked.
 
Drag a clip and the envelope moves with it.

Hiya, Jonesey. That's the thing. I don't want the clip moving with it. Just the envelope nodes.
 
For this I was going for a manually created "gate" effect on a noisy guitar part. There were a series of brief stops that were too fast/delicate for a gate to deal with properly but I wanted absolute silence.
 
Want I was trying to do was just create the Clip Gain reduction on one of the stops then copy the nodes and drag move them down the clip to all the other stops.
 
I was doing this at the Clip level to make sure the Gain drop happened before it hit the track strip (and all the effects on it) while keeping my Track Gain free from envelope silliness (I may want to muck with it later and don't want to engage offset).
 
This may be possible in Track Automation Lanes... I don't think so though. I'll have to try I guess.
 
 
Cheers. Hope you been well, man.

gswitz
Copy to an empty track, then slide, then copy back?

Hiya, Geoff. How you doin', bud?
 
I'm not following but maybe you've dealt with this before and are seeing something I ain't.
 
If I'm envisioning this correctly and you are working from the Copy/Paste envelope procedure I think that would probably replace the entire envelope (thus overiding the original set of nodes). If I could select a time range of the envelope in the blank track AND select a time range in the clip AND past it there (then I can just move the node set into place) that might work.
 
That's a lot of kerfutzing though.
 
If you check out this vid from Scott Garrigus over on his Digifreq site he shows the action I'm looking for without the "copy" part of the procedure.
 
http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/video.asp?ID=6
 
Essentially in that vid near the end he selects all the nodes of a particular shape he has created then drags it down the timeline.
 
If I could do THAT except with a "Copy" action involved (so that the original set of nodes remains in place and I'm dragging a copy of them all down the timeline) I'd be a happy Beep... at least for this scenario.
 
I've actually already performed all the edits I needed to manually (on this set of tracks) for now but I definitely see needing this again.
 
I'm kind of now yearning for some kind of Automation "Sandbox/Track/Pallette" or something where drawing and manipulating envelopes is a little easier then being able to point the envelopes to specific tracks/clips to print them to their target envelopes.
 
Anyway... just keep getting my brain beat in any time I muck with automation in Sonar. I think I took it for granted a lot of this stuff was possible. I am not sure any of the other programs do much better either. Maybe Bitwig but I sure as frack ain't fonna switch to that over this. lol
 
Cheers, man. I hope life is treating you well.

Try this.  Select area of nodes in track.  then Edit - Cut Special and select only automation unchecking all the other boxes.  Go back to original first location and hit Ctrl - V .  Then hit Ctrl - V at any locations you want that portion of the envelope.
Good luck.

lorneyb2
Try this.  Select area of nodes in track.  then Edit - Cut Special and select only automation unchecking all the other boxes.  Go back to original first location and hit Ctrl - V .  Then hit Ctrl - V at any locations you want that portion of the envelope.
Good luck.

No dice. The entire Cut Special dialog is grayed out for some reason (I tried lasso select and individually selecting each node using Ctrl + Left Click > Edit (global) > Cut Special = Dialog options grayed out).
 
This does sound like it might work in an automation lane (track automation) but I'm in Clip Automation. I will be referencing this thread (and this technique) to see if it works in Lanes.
 
...
 
Update:
 
Just checked actually and this does work in a proper Track Automation Lane. It's a little glitchy (I got some weird behavior) but it does work.
 
Sooo... it seems this is a Clip Automation limitation.
 
I also tried the "Select Nodes > Ctrl/Copy/Drag" thing in the track Auto. Lanes and that totally doesn't work.
 
Anyway, I guess I'll have to keep this in mind for similar needs in the future. Messes with my desired signal chain and is a serious piddle around but it works. I'll have to either use the Track Gain for this type of thing or insert a dummy/blank Prochannel module at the very top of the PC strip and automate the output.
 
Should be easier IMO but I'll take what I can get.
 
Thanks, dood.

gswitz
I copy and paste envelopes between multiple tracks of guitar using the method I described above. I do this when I have two Mics in the same guitar.

Give it a try beep. It may be fiddly, but I can do it pretty quickly.

If you copy a section to a new track and then copy back only the envelope after having moved it, you should only override the part odd the envelope you aim for.

Are you using the Track Automation? I was trying to do this right on the clips (so it completely yanks all signal before it even reaches the track strip... kind of like deleting a clip section but without slicing up the clip).
 
Anyway... again it seems I'm just trying to force the program to do crap it isn't designed to do (yet).
 
I could have sworn we were able to copy sections of envelopes and toss them around like we can with clips sections but I guess not.
 
Thanks, man.

peregrine
Make sure you have the edit filter set to the automation envelope  - not the clip itself - then lasso
the nodes you want and copy special just the automation. Then position the now time
where you want the nodes inserted and paste special into that track. This is working
for me, or are you trying to do something a little different?

Are you copying clip automation or track automation?
 
I think the Cut/Copy/Paste Special stuff ain't working because I'm dealing with clips. I was however hoping this could be done with mouse moves (avoiding the "Special" edit stuff which is of course a bunch of extra moves).
 
Thanks.

Am I correct in concluding that this is one of the issues that could be solved handily by the new AUX track? Run the guitar tracks through a single AUX for gain management and duplicate the envelope in each location where you want the muted effect to take place.  This would assume that you could adjust all of the tracks in the same place, but I suppose there's no reason why you couldn't have subsets of the tracks in their own gain/AUX tracks...Dunno if this does it for you.

Hiya, Jonesey. I appreciate the input but that's all from the "Track Automation" level. This was about clip automation (but still kind of about automation envelopes in general within Sonar).
 
A lot of the Copy Special stuff and other tricks/workarounds for automation at the track level doesn't works on the Clip automation level (which I am discovering).
 
I've been doing this type of stuff at the clip level because it's a stage BEFORE it hits the track strip. Kind of like doing things on external gear before hitting a mixer. This allows me to keep the Gain knob on the strip free for overall adjustments (like a trim control for gain staging).
 
Now though with the new Aux tracks I may be able to cheat this a bit more. Essentially IF the Aux tracks have full Track functionality (including Prochannel and FX Bins and all that good stuff) then I can treat the Track (that contains the clips) as my "Clip/Virtual Outboard" gear the the "Aux" track as my "Mixing/In the Box" track.
 
So in this scenario my Clip Gain Automation gets done on the Track (instead of on the clip) and nothing else (unless I choose) then all the mixing stuff I'd usually do a track level (like Prochannel/FX Bin stuff) gets done on the Aux tracks. Then I can have my Busses still doing the summing and "glue" type effects.
 
Still does not solve my basic problems with automation and is a wicked roundabout way of doing things AND I'm not sure if it will even work yet (I don't have JP installed yet) but the extra stage could indeed be useful in this regard. I'd just have to make sure all my clips are edited beforehand (because they won't appear int he Aux tracks AFAIK). I'd also have to be diligent about hiding original tracks to keep the track strip count down... which would hide my clips making other things like setting my Now Time annoying but for straight up mixing it could be okay (or maybe the Aux tracks have a Waveform Preview which would help in that regard).
 
Meh.
 
 
Thanks. Giving me some ideas but definitely all workarounds.
 
Cheers, bud.