Helpful ReplyComping Live Drums How?

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BMOG
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2015/11/01 11:22:28 (permalink)

Comping Live Drums How?

I had a live drum session yesterday and there several takes but I am not sure how to using Comping in regards of cutting and pasting the best sections. The drummer played each take slightly different if I could figure out how to cut and paste and keep everything in time. Any suggestions how to cut and paste when using the following drum mic setup Ohl, ohr, hh,k, sn1,sn2,ht,lt? Thanks in advance
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Beepster
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/01 11:55:05 (permalink)
The way to do this unfortunately needs to be setup BEFORE you record. The new(ish) comping mode has an option in your Preferences to "Group Clips in Folders" (or something like that... right click on the Transport Record button and the menu comes up IIRC). You would put all your drum mic tracks in a folder then record your drum parts.
 
Now it's been quite a while since I've done this but IIRC that makes it so all the clips recorded in one take (in all your various tracks) get automatically grouped (so when you edit one all the clips from that take respond to the edit thus keeping them "in phase").
 
For there what you would do is comp normally using whatever track you want to use to do your edits on (like you could just make your comp splits on the snare track and all the other drum parts will respond to those edits like promoting, moving, fades, etc).
 
You do NOT want to move ANY of the multi mic'd tracks without moving all the others from the same take (it'll screw up the phase or worse and sound like crap).
 
If it was all recorded to a click you should be able to just select and promote the take (set) you want to use at the correct spots, adjust and X-Fade the splits and bingo bango... you've got a multi mic comp.
 
 
If you did NOT use the "Group Clips In Folders" method then you have some work ahead of you.
 
What you need to do is go through ALL the clips in ALL the tracks and manually create selection groups for each take that was recorded. So you go through each track for each kit peice recorded and select Take 1 of each track, right click and select Create Selection Group (the wording may be different... I am not at the DAW yet but you can look it up and I encourage you to do so so you can learn properly instead of from a dumbf*ck like me).
 
Now all of the clips that were recorded in your first take can and will respond together to any edit moves.
 
Go through and repeat the procedure for every take the drummer performed (look at the Record # on the clips to match up the takes or the Take lane numbers but sometimes the take lane numbers get all flipped around for some reason... so use your ears as well).
 
One thing that you need to be REALLY careful of after you've created your selection groups is if you start using the comping tool to make splits. I've noticed in the past (with X3) that sometimes the comping tool will overide your user created selection groups. It's a major problem that I don't know if it's been fixed (or if I was doing something wrong).
 
Really I can help much beyond all that because it has been too long but hopefully some of the stuff I've mentioned will get you well on your way to reading up on the finer points of what I'm referring to... and you REALLY want to study this stuff a bit first because there is a lot to keep track of and understand to make it work properly.
 
One last thing... don't EVER mix and match the takes (like use the kick drum from take one and the snare drum from take 3). Due to the mic bleed it will screw up the phase of everything and likely just create a mess. There are other techniques that can be used to correct timing issues if need be but those are even more complex.
 
Cheers.
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BMOG
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/01 18:46:27 (permalink)
Thanks for the reply and all the details can you point me where to begin reading on creating group selections?
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Beepster
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/01 18:58:09 (permalink)
BMOG
Thanks for the reply and all the details can you point me where to begin reading on creating group selections?



If you look through the Reference Guide (the big 2000 page behemoth manual) find entries on "Clips", "Selection Groups", "Editing", "Multi Track Comping or Editing" and other such topics.
 
Most specifically you want read up on "Clip Selection Groups" or "Edit Groups".
 
Then for future recordings check out "Comping" and "Recording Modes". There is a vid in the CakeTV section of this site that actually shows the various Comping/Record modes from when they were introduced in X3. That vid might actually be helpful for understanding manually grouping the clips and editing as well (it'll show an editing workflow on multitracked parts).
 
You can also google those terms with the words "Cakewalk Sonar" in the search term. You should get a bunch of entries from the online manual.
 
Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/01 18:59:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bluzdog 2015/11/04 23:25:55
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BMOG
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/01 19:27:16 (permalink)
Thank you
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Cactus Music
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/01 19:49:33 (permalink)
Would not a huge factor be that the parts were played to a clock?? 
I can't see using multi takes of free time drumming without major hair pulling.  
 
 

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BMOG
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/02 03:09:15 (permalink)
Yes the takes were played using the metronome if that is what you meant by clock?
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/02 10:27:20 (permalink)
Cactus Music
Would not a huge factor be that the parts were played to a clock?? 
I can't see using multi takes of free time drumming without major hair pulling.  



Definitely.
 
I'm actually about to attempt this though on a recording session I did ages ago (actually I've been planning to do this for a looong time but have been trying to get as comfortable with the program as possible before beginning).
 
It's an albums worth of tunes. All tunes were recorded twice without a click. There are wild tempo variations and one set of tracks is quite a bit faster than the other.
 
What I want to do is align both versions of each song to the timeline. That way I comp together the best elements of each instrument from both tracks and/or create doubled tracks (like for rhythm guitar) and other wackiness.
 
What I've come up with is to make slices across all the tracks either at measures or simply at major sections (like at the start/end of verses, choruses, solos, etc).
 
Then each section of each instrument gets put in it's own take lane (or I can stagger them across two take lanes so nothing overlaps).
 
Then I would snap the starts of all the splits to where they SHOULD be on the timeline if they had been recorded to a click (I may even toss in some creative tempo changes/fluctuations... just much milder ones than appear on the original recordings).
 
This will create a scenario where the sections will either overlap or there will be gaps.
 
If there is an overlap then I time stretch the end of the clips across all tracks so they line up with the start of the next section (which will be right on a beat/measure line and in time). If there is a gap I do the opposite and time stretch it to fill the gap and the end lines up with the start of the next section.
 
I'd create slight overlapping x fades at each split/section to sew the sections together.
 
Then I'd bounce any stretched clips to use the offline rendering (and hopefully getting rid of any artifacts).
 
Then I bounce/flatten everything back into single clips for each instrument.
 
THEN I could use audiosnap to do any finite time correction on drums (or use the Gonzalez drum correction technique) and the other instruments.
 
Once everything is back in proper time I can comp together the best parts.
 
The only REAL problem I see with this plan is the possibility of artifacts but even if I absolutely cannot fully get rid of them on all the tracks as long as the drums and vocals are useable I can just retrack the guits and bass. I'll probably do some drum replacement/reinforcement as well so even that's not a huge deal.
 
Actually this particular project was what started me on this psychotic obsession to learn as much about Sonar as possible. Kind of complex stuff for a newb so I had to "un-newbify" myself... and I got distracted at certain points by all the other shiny bobbles.
 
Crazy journey.
 
Cheers.
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BMOG
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Re: Comping Live Drums How? 2015/11/04 19:48:51 (permalink)
Great article explained exactly what I need to do
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