Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir?

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woodsglen
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2015/11/07 14:38:41 (permalink)

Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir?

Our church choir has shrunk to basically 4 parts SAB and I sing tenor as much as I can while having to play and direct - frankly this is frustrating and I'm at the end of my rope trying to find music that "fits".
 
I'm toying with the idea of having the singers record their parts to a recorded multi sound track since that would have to be the same.  I figured I could take care of pitch correction, etc.  and I'm not sure when a melodyne upgrade would do in the future if I had them sing alto, soprano, etc. at a comfortable "key range" and then transposed the parts back and used melodyne to correct pitch, etc.
 
as of now i only have the stock version that came with Producer and have not really had the need to use that (yet)
 
Would I need to record each voice separately?  I do have enough SM 58's and to cover 4 singers and I have a 4 track fostex digital recorder so i could get 4 wave files.  
Whats the best way to have them follow the accompaniment?  and how far does isolation play into this.
 
I want to be very careful as these are "older singers" and you can imagine how far out of their comfort zone I risk putting them.
 
As a group,  they sing and blend well and diction and vowel production is good. but there are no "solo voices"  ( which is almost a good thing with a volunteer choir)
 
I've used sonar to make sound tracks so they are comfortable with that and we have used mics and "reverb" with some more contemporary songs - even though the room is "live" and choral and organ friendly,   with using 4 mics "not too close"  and only two floor monitors at a level just enough to hear themselves....  having a good reverb mix really made things sound bigger than life.
 
Now I want to do a couple Handel pieces and an amateur quartet of 4 lone voices is pushing it.
If i could get them with an accompaniment track,  they might feel a lot more confident.
 
Any thoughts?
 
WG
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    Beepster
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/07 15:17:56 (permalink)
    So this is a quartet (four voices) and you have four inputs (mics and interface inputs)?
     
    How many vocalists would you prefer?
     
    Are you able to set up a headphone mixer (and would the vocalists be able to sing with playback from headphones) instead of monitors? I'm assuming that this probably is not possible but I'm asking anyway.
     
    First off... the version of Melodyne included with Sonar is not capabably of polyphony detection so if you just recorded the room you could not isolate each voice and correct/pitch adjust to acheive virtual harmonies. The full version can though and you qualify for an upgrade discount.
     
    Let's assume you can't upgrade for now.
     
    If the vocalists are able to perform more than one part (like all the harmonies) then I'd try close micing them all singing at the same time with the singers and mics spaced far apart enough to avoid bleed but that they could still hear each other (so they can still harmonize).
     
    Then play back that track (preferably through headphones but if not at LOW volume in the monitors pointed AWAY from the mics... just enough so they can hook into the pitch and timing or set up maybe ONE headphone to one vocalist who acts as the guideline to the rest).
     
    In that playback the vocalists then sing the missing harmonies. So now instead of 4 vocals you have 8 all close mic'd.
     
    Do that as many times as you need to get all the appropriate voices in your harmony.
     
    Since it is all close mic'd you can then use the basic version of Melodyne to pitch/timing correct each individual mic'd performance as needed.
     
    If using monitors the mic bleed is an issue though but that may be able to be dealt with with some creative EQing/gating/editing.
    If they perform in time/on pitch, every time though the monitor sound may just blend in nicely as ambience.
     
    Then using a reverb VST you can create a "virtual room mic" setup to make up for the lack of actual room mics.
     
    /not a pro... just some ideas based on my minimal knowledge
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    Beepster
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/07 15:28:16 (permalink)
    Oh and of course alternatively you could just take your close mic'd tracks and use the basic version of melodyne to adjust the performances to create your desired harmonies.
     
    I meant to say that.
     
    You'd want to scatter/delay those harmonies a bit though so it doesn't sound all process and mechanical.
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    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/07 17:28:44 (permalink)
    Hmmmm....    Something to think about.   you have good food for thought.    I have until Wednesday to get some things together.   I do have a headphone amp and may be able to gather a few extra headphones.
     
    Will also need to lay down their parts at a set tempo to have something to build on later.l
     
    Thanks for the suggestions.
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    gswitz
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/07 18:24:36 (permalink)
    I'd use one Mic close and above the singers and encourage them to sing with heads up.

    I'd put another further from them to get more of the church verb. I'd mix the two together.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    rumleymusic
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/07 21:06:59 (permalink)
    When I record a small choir I usually take a 4-6 mic approach.  Stereo main pair, 2 or 3 spots depending on the width of the group and if it is in a good church, a distant pair so I don't need to use reverb.  Doing this 3 tier approach can make 4 musicians sound like 12.  
     
    The problem in this situation is SM58s will not cut it.  Those are live voice mics and rarely suitable to record acoustic music with any quality.  
     
    If you are recording Handel or any other Baroque, classical etc music there are a few general rules to follow, regardless of the type of ensemble.
    1)Work with stereo pairs of the best possible mics you can get your hands on such as condensers or good ribbon, no mono tracks except for spotting.
    2)Musicians should all perform together, never at different times or isolated.
    3)Record in the natural performance environment.  If you need a headphone mix of the accompaniment which was recorded separately, you're gonna need enough cans for everyone, including a mix of their voices.  
     
    I know you probably want to do it yourself, but it might be a good idea to seek out an engineer or student engineer in your area who might have some good condensers and a few more tracks to work with.

    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
    www.rumleymusic.com
    #6
    gswitz
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/07 21:14:18 (permalink)
    Rumley's approach sounds really smart. :-)
     
    I recorded a 20 member choir with 5 mics.
    1 stereo pair.
    2 condensors above and on opposing sides.
    1 condenser in figure eight pattern the furthest away.
     
    These are a couple of the recordings from that session...
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20141130_David_18.mp3
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20141130_David_20.mp3
     
    post edited by gswitz - 2015/11/07 21:35:42

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #7
    tlw
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/08 16:55:21 (permalink)
    I'd be very wary about recording too much room reverb, or adding any reverb at all.

    If the recordings are to provide backing for live performances rather than release as recordings, then any reverb on those recordings is going to be present when they are played back, obviously. So any reverb on the recording will then be subjected to the natural reverb of the performance room in the same way that the live voices are. With the result that the reverb will build up on the recorded voices in a different way to the live voices, unless a similar reverb effect can be added to the live to that already present on the recording. In a very live room things could get a bit out of control and intelligibility suffer. Probably wouldn't be a very natural sound either.

    In my opinion/experience reverb on tracks used as live backing is best avoided if you want an natural sound. Reverb applied as a deliberate effect is a different matter of course. Dry recordings can always have reverb added, removing recorded reverb can be impossible.

    As well as pitch-shifting the backing tracks, it might be worth simply trying eqing them so they don't match the voice that recorded them. Or trying a wet-only chorus with low depth and a slow lfo speed, or something like Waves Reel ADT which as well as the Beatle's fake double tracking can also do subtle very well and is a true "through zero" process that can shift the "doubled" sound ahead of as well as behind the original. Waves Doubler is cheaper and can do a similar trick but is far less subtle for some reason.

    Finally, if possible keep the tracks as individual ones rather than mixing to stereo/mono and play them back from a DAW in performance. Otherwise you might well find different performance spaces need different treatment of each voice, but your backing is fixed and can't easily be eq'd or balanced to suit.

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    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 13:40:02 (permalink)
    Rumleymusic and GsWitz,    I appreciate your time and knowledge for recording the choir.
     
    I wish i had a choir to actually record "live".   The purpose of this "experiment" is.. ( since there are only 4 voices) to try and record them singing their parts ( perhaps women sing the alto parts and then soprano parts  - even if i have to transpose the parts - and use melodyne to transpose the parts back up ( or down ) ( assuming that's possible -- so I have gathered ).
     
    Then we would sing to the recorded sound track just to get the job done.  Frankly,  it's that or nothing at this point.
     
    I know it's a long shot and now's the time to find out if it will work or not. 
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    gswitz
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 13:48:27 (permalink)
    This may be off topic, but when my daughter learns choir parts, I make a midi version of the song and bounce it with her part pronounced and loud so she can practice singing the right tones. You can easily bounce a different version for each member and record them singing along to the midi parts. Then drop out the midi stuff and you're left with a fun recording.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 14:02:03 (permalink)
    TLW -   I think you have the idea of what I'm trying to pull off...    Thanks for the heads up on any reverb on the backing tracks - and yes -  my intention was to absolutely have each voice going to an independent track.   And I'm afraid I will have to use cans for the best results,  I can see that going over with great enthusiasm.
     
    Since I don't have 4 input capability for Sonar ( 2 in 4 out )    I figured I would use my 4 track fostex HD recorder and import those wav files   ( at least try it at home and see if it flies. ) 
     
    I also plan to record the individual parts in short takes with each phrase or subject line per take.     Since it's Handle,  that concept should be very forgiving, and inherently easier to deal with in the long run  especially allowing for  performance issues such as phrasing, tone, diction, etc without having to record long sections of music.
     
    Thanks again for all of the input.   I need to work on recording a basic acc. track and I'll post an update in a week or so and let you know if they all revolted!
     
    BTW,  the recorded accompaniment track will be basically harpsichord in nature, and the live performance will be with with organ.    ( easier said then done,   I know...   Ive done this part before! )  
     
    I will say, the addition of the "Big Time View"  along with a solid bass line is a life saver in the later versions of Sonar.
    WG
     
    #11
    Beepster
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 14:13:57 (permalink)
    I think you've received much better recording advice for this music from the others (who are experienced in such things... everything I said was purely theoretical guesswork) but they may have indeed glossed over the need for 4 vocalists to cover material written for much more vocalists (like harmonies, group vocals, etc).
     
    Not entirely though. They allude to ways to get those extra harmonies and doubles in there.
     
    It's a shame to waste a good natural cathedral recording environment but since you are going to be layering performances a dry/small room/close mic recordings of each vocalist performing differnt parts and/or using pitch shifting to create the harmonies, to me, would be a more flexible and manageable approach. Note: If the vocalists can record the extra parts properly it would be way better than pitch shifting.
     
    Harmonies are recorded like this all the time for commercial stuff using a single vocalist (I've done it myself back when I actually recorded my own vocals). With close micing in a dry(er) room, layering the parts/harmonies with multiple passes (and making sure to get multiple takes) you can do a ton of stuff in post production.
     
    With just that you can correct the individual close mic'd takes as needed and then add virtual room reverb to mimic the cathedral.
     
    Then maybe do some takes of the whole choir IN the Cathedral to blend in... or maybe even start with those as bed tracks for the dry close mic recordings for your singers to track to. So record the whole group in the cathedral together, maybe with more of a room mic set up for a couple takes/harmony variations. Then record each singer close mic's in a dryer environment (like a smaller room or in isolation one at a time).
     
    Use the cathedral recording as a reference to the room sound and go through the mountains of convolution reverbs (or just tweak non convo reverbs/delays to match it as best as possible) then blend it all to taste.
     
    If you get all the parts, in time, in all these various configurations you can do pretty much anything you want in post production.
     
    Another thing to consider is maybe if your mics aren't all the same then try switching around the mics between the vocalists to get a take of each singer on each mic which might provide some nice variation for group vocal dynamics (like the same part sung multiple times through different mics mic give the illusion of more/different singers instead of the same singer through the same mic every time).
     
    Panning/EQ/chorus and stereo effects can help fill out the "full" choir sound as well (again something that can be played with in post prod if you have enough takes from everyone).
     
    Using pitch correction/humanization on the same tracks to acheive the choir effect really isn't going to be as good as actually getting the singers to perform the doubles/harmonies so get as many as you can.
     
    Sounds like you may only have access to them for brief time (which is usually the case with live tracking) so do what you can with the artists while you have them. If some have to leave but others can stick around (or maybe you can get extra sessions with anyone later) just keep going until throats are raw or it's time for nature to take over (food/sleep/etc).
     
    Again... just some THEORETICAL thoughts from a non pro.
     
    The other fellows who have commenting have actually recorded this type of stuff so pay close attention to the techniques they described to actually capture the sound.
     
    Cheers and have fun.
     
    Edit: and yes... tlw was totally rocking the concept. He's a smart dude.
    post edited by Beepster - 2015/11/09 14:26:12
    #12
    tlw
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 19:09:45 (permalink)
    Don't underestimate yourself Beepster, you gave some very good advice.

    It just happens that I've experimented with pre-recorded backings a few times over the years. Some of the most experimental experiments years ago were actual gigs, and I have the scars to prove it. You know how it goes, the average gigs you forget, the good ones you mostly forget but the nightmare ones are burned into your memory for ever.

    Computers make using backings far easier than it used to be though. I've never got my head around Live, I find the interface completely unintuitive, but I've seen people do remarkable things with it. It's something you have to practice to death though because anything that hasn't bitten you in rehearsal almost certainly will on the night.

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    gswitz
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 19:34:41 (permalink)
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20120916_G_DayByDay.mp3
     
    This was one of these recordings I mentioned above.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 19:50:16 (permalink)
    TLW...    Amen to that.   I originally fired up Cakewalk Sonar to do more "contemporary" stuff to be combined with kids...    Then it really got to be fun when last Christmas I decided to work on  what my classical pianist son called " Dad's one man Renaissance Festival" as everyone in the whole house heard  Gaudete over and over until all hours of the morning for a solid week. 
     
    It was very cool...   I enjoyed the heck out of it and the real challenge for the choir was staying focused and keeping it together during a rhythmic drop kick key change that fell out of nowhere with a syncopated accented off-beat rhythm section that lead back into the final chorus. 
     
    I did it with oboe, lute, various drums, triangles, and small cymbals.  It was a blast and they pulled it off like they owned it,  as we all know...   the computer waits for no one.  
     
    Of course,  there was no need for any vocal backing track last year.  I had 2 laser beam sopranos and 8 strong voices.    Well, so much for pulling in ringers that have gone off to college!  Thanks for the ideas...    I've basically clued them in that we will try recording ourselves and making our own "virtual choir".   I know they are probably thinking this is not going to be anywhere near as much fun as last year!    I think they may end being surprised once I can get them over the hurdle of the initial first set of tracks.
     
    WG.
     
     
     
    #15
    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 19:59:51 (permalink)
    GSWITZ....
    These are a couple of the recordings from that session...
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20141130_David_18.mp3
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20141130_David_20.mp3
     
    Nice work...  Speaking of Laser Beam Sopranos....     ahhhhh!   
    Send me a private note ----  who and where is this?
     
    Wayne
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    gswitz
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/09 20:26:29 (permalink)
    The performance was at St. Paul's Church in Richmond Va
    http://www.stpaulsrva.org/about/history/
     
    It was an evening service near Christmas that started near sunset in an atrium and they sang until it was completely dark while the listeners sat on the walls holding candles.
     
    When it was over, I dashed to move mics before people stumbled out in the dark.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/10 08:52:14 (permalink)
    Interesting stuff in the above posts and nice MP3's.
     
    That's the inherent problem in a church band, orchestra, choir..... people always coming and going.  Kids leave to go to college just as they are really getting good at what they do, old folks retiring or moving.... it's a constant and ongoing struggle for the music ministers in modern churches.
     
    The obvious solution to the small 4 voice choir is of course to recruit more people who can hold a tune to join.  Barring that, there is an amazing amount of ground, musically speaking, that can be covered by 4 voices.  Much of the modern church's  music can easily be covered with 4 or less voices. However, that also involves the use of musical instruments. Since the 2 mp3's you posted were examples of straight up vocal choir with no instruments...I'm guessing it's a safe assumption that the mp3's represent the sound you are trying to achieve. If you're going for the classic large choir singing without musical accompaniment , that really does need more bodies on the platform, singing the parts. You have no choice but to get busy recruiting more folks to join the fun. I think it would be less work on everyone involved to get more folks. Asking the existing volunteers to spend the time to learn 2 different parts (or more) and record them..... or for you to try to use Melodyne to create the tracks will end badly.... you're headed for a fast burnout from either the choir members or you from being overworked. Most folks have a limited amount of time to devote to volunteer projects such as choir.
     
    While it is possible to create vocal backing tracks to double or triple the number of voices, I would stay away from using melodyne to transpose them into harmony parts.  For one, that's a huge amount of work on everyone as I pointed out.  Second, when you start moving tones more than a whole step as you would likely be doing to create harmony parts, you will start to notice the artifacts. IHMO, it's better to run with 4 voices singing solid parts than to try to emulate a larger choir filled with artifacts.  Third, using tracks "locks you in" to a particular performance. You can't easily vary or extend the song if "the spirit moves" you to do so. ( not that choirs tend to "wing it" often)
     
    So, that's just my 2 cents on the topic.
     
    Recruit, Rebuild, Rejoice.
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2015/11/10 09:03:19

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    #18
    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/10 11:53:01 (permalink)
    Guitar Hacker....   GSWITS' recordings of St. Paul's Choral performance is way above melodyne's paygrade! 
     
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    woodsglen
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    Re: Any suggestions on recording vocals to enhance very small choir? 2015/11/10 12:04:01 (permalink)
    Guitar Hacker,  Oh,  I'm sorry,  no...  We're doing nothing like that -   the sound I'm trying to achieve is a chorus from the Messiah.  Baroque and contrapuntal in nature.  typically performed with 8 -16 people with the theme constantly presented in one part or another with a lot of inverted harmonies.    All of parts have solo lines that thread in and out meeting in 4 voice cadences,  and it's not quite as difficult as it "sounds".   
     
    It's one of those works that stays with you like riding a bicycle.
     
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