Chords and keys and modes :-)

And to make it a little simpler...
 
Play the notes of C major over your chord progression. Do any of them sound "sour"? If not it's likely in the key of C (or one of it's relative modes).
 
As you solo revolve the solo around the root note and the 5th note of the chord using the notes of C major. Those will be your sweetest notes (with the root being the resolve).
 
The "less" sweet but still sweet notes will be your pentatonic scales (major/minor depending on the quality of the chord... so major use major pent and minor chord use minor pentatonic).
 
The remaining notes will be ones you just travel through to get to those other notes or bend up from to those other notes.
 
The notes in between all THOSE notes can be used in a "chromatic" way so you can blow through them quick or hang on them for tension/dissonance on yoru way to the sweet notes (like the blues scales).
 
Okay... the first paragraph was simple. The rest may take some doin'... but that's a quick guide to improv in a specific key. It does not cover chord by chord type progressions that twist keys up or account for melodic/harmonic minor wackiness.

I was using C as an example.
 
 
But in that example, the root of the starting chord is an F, let's say. There could also be an Am or Am7 in the progression. 
 
This is where I get a little confused. All the notes of the chords could all be in the key of C major. But the starting chord's root is an F. I would not play in the key of F - Ionian because there is a B note in one or more of the chords in the progression. However, F - Lydian would work. So would I say I am in the key of F? Then the Lydian mode is what I am playing?
 
But saying I am in the key of F does not make sense if there isn't a Bb, right?
 
C - Ionian, F - Lydian, A- Aeolian have all the same notes in the scale. So does it matter? I think so. How else do we communicate? lol
 
So am I playing in C or F?
 
Thanks for the help!
 
 --Edit--
Since I mentioned Flying in a Blue Dream in the other thread... The opening chord has C as its root but the chord itself has an F#. That is why, in this case, C - Lydian sounds good with it. But to say he is in the key of C is not correct. Otherwise, the scale he plays (predominantly) could not be called Lydian. 
 
So I think in my example, it would be key of F and the F - Lydian is what sounds best.
 
Now that I type this out loud (or whatever), it doesn't sounds right to me lol How can I be in the key of F?
 
I don't understand keys and modes (as far as naming goes). lol
Thanks
 

BTW that is the most basic/literal interpretation of the modal system. It can be bent and twisted using various means but that's the main gridwork/foundation of the natural keys.
 

BobF
If your new to theory, this is a great tool and the users guide is full of great info
 
http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/

But what if you're backwards and prefer the Circle Of Fourths??? 

codamedia

Beepster
You have not changed keys, none of notes have changed... the only thing that has happened is you are moving the root note you are using. That's all modes are. Taking the Major scale and starting on a different note.

 All music made sense to me after I wrapped my head around that.

Even Zappa?

My break through with modes came after I watched this video

 

bitflipper
Just as bapu only plays in Am, I only improvise in Dorian mode. Blues scale - bah. That's for poseurs and jazz organists. If I don't get a cramp in my wrist by the end of the night, I've been slacking.

When I am using the "blues" scale I actually base it on Dorian more than Aeolian (nat minor). The major VI is useful bluesy color. Then I can occasionally flop over to Aeolian (minor VI) to twist things up a bit (more of a "Little Wing" feel). Dropping into mixolydian/mixo-blues to access the major III takes it into "happy" mode but remains bluesy.
 
Doing any of that breaks the key. So all those modes happen with the same root (eg: A Dorian, A Aeolian, A Mixo).
 
For metal I'll use that type of key bending action except with Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian, Harmonic minor (I) and the dominant scale of Harm minor (V).
 

codamedia
 
+1
Modes used to make my head spin .... I could never understand them and thought they were just another set of scales I had to learn.... UNTIL someone explained them the way you do above. That happened about 25 - 30 years ago and I still consider it the biggest hurdle I have ever crossed. All music made sense to me after I wrapped my head around that.

Same here except I mapped it out myself on graph paper because I could see some kind of pattern emerging on the fretboard but it was incomplete. Pulled out the graph paper, mapped out what I knew then filled in the rest using my scale books as reference.
 
Once I saw it in it's entirety it sure was a serious forehead slapping moment... especially after 15 years of grunting it out the hard way. lulz...

I understand Am, but don't know much about theory. I just look for notes and chords that sound good together.

Beepster

michaelhanson
I understand Am, but don't know much about theory. I just look for notes and chords that sound good together.

Honestly that's how I worked for the first half of my career and it was fine. It still is how I roll too when writing/learning BUT knowing the theory crap just speeds up nailing down the right chord and scale options (and how to totally ignore them in a more thoughtful way to make sh*t sound ridiculous... which is big part of what I do).
 
It goes like this...
 
Step 1) Spazz the frack out on the guit/bass
 
Step 2) Figure out the mess I made using the theory
 
Step 3) Fix the things that need fixing and break the things that need breaking
 
Step 4) Let out a triumphant fart and aggressively fill my nostrils

Step 5) And play like heck, while jumping and poodling all over the stage to make it look like you are really good!

BobF
If your new to theory, this is a great tool and the users guide is full of great info
 
http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/

Not so new. Just slow :-)
 

maximumpower

Beepster
Nope. F is the 4th step in C Major/Ionian. So as you solo over the F you use F Lydian for your solo because Lydian is the mode that appears on the 4th step of a Major/Ionian scale.
 

So it is in the key of F? F - Lydian has the same notes as the C Major scale. That is why is sounds "good" over those chords because there are no sharps and flats?
 

No, it's in the Key of C. You are just using the F Lydian mode which is part of the key of C.
 
If you look over the stuff I posted upthread it shows the order the modes appear in the Major key.
 
All you are doing is changing which note of the Major scale you start on.
 
So...
 
C Major (Ionian)       =  CDEFGABC
 
F Lydian (4th mode) =  FGABCDEF
 
All the same notes. The order of the notes doesn't change. No notes are ommitted or added. You just started on the F instead of the C.
 
Make sense? That is all modes are. Just taking a base scale and shifting your start point.
 
Cheers.

I remember having to read essentially the same theory from about three or four different sources before I started to get chord progressions... *Sigh...*