Sonar, Mirrilis Action and Voicemeeter: Update: Mirillis Action is on sale...

Edit November 28 2015 regarding Mirillis sale: Well that was a spot of luck (a bit of a rarity in my world but I guess this was meant to be). This whole time I had been working with the demo version of Mirillis Action! to make absolutely sure it would do what I wanted to. I figured out that it would in the past couple days and just went to make it final. Lo and behold they JUST put it on sale. Normal price is $30 USD and they dropped it to $20 USD. Wicked! So my slothful, paranoid, OCD behavior saved me a few bucks.
 
The ONLY real problem the program exhibits seems to be that my Sonar level meters show up gray in the vids (instead of bright green). You can still totally see the meters pumping away but they just show up gray. This does not seem to be the case when recording other audio programs so it could just be the way Sonar renders the color of the meters. Still weird but not a huge deal for me.
 
I've been able to get my audio stuff going, the vid quality is good and it's not raping my system resources (Action! is meant for recording intense game stuff and supposedly has the least system resource consumption of all the screen recorders which I why I chose it for recording my audio stuff).
 
So thought I'd update with that for those who have been watching/interested in the program.
 
Edit: Phase one of my kernoodling (getting Sonar through Voicemeeter to record into Action!) can be found in this post... http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3321297
 
 
Alright... not really "ouch" but I've got the programs installed and ready to be routed. I'm sure I can bumble through it all but if anyone is using these products in tandem to do live screen recordings of Sonar and have some insights to share that would be great.
 
Right now Voicemeeter is lookin' like the most complex hurdle in the equation (but only because I already understand Sonar more or less).
 
As always just tapping the braintrust here whom always point me in the right direction. Of course any knowledge gleaned, absorbed, accumulated, figured out and otherwise crammed into my feeble noodle will get shared with others seeking help.
 
I'll be poking at it over the next couple days.
 
Gonna have to figure out some simple vid editing too for post prod (combo of webcam, screencaps/screenrecordings and audio). Have a bunch of possible freebie editors to try out but really it looks like even something as simple as Windows Movie Maker can cover my initial needs.
 
Cheers, all and thanks in advance.

Voicemeeter gave me a lot of grief when I have ever tried to use it and I found that Saffires have built-in loopback, which put me in heaven. The Scarletts do not have this, but Focusrite says you can achieve the same loopback using the S/PDIF ports. That option may be the least painful to pursue, just be sure to set up your mix so that you do not cause a feedback loop.
 
For screen capture, you may want to do video only in the capture software, and all audio in SONAR. With new routing options the loopback may be totally unnecessary, but you would need a transient at both the beginning and end to stretch/shrink audio between. I have yet to find a free screen capture that doesn't require this to some extent, but admittedly do not do this often.
 
I also have never edited video in SONAR, but think you can do any stretching required of this sort there. Someone who has done so could easily confirm or not. With enough lead in/out on the ends you could align audio to video then lop the tails off in Windows Movie Maker if needed. SONAR may be able to do this as well.
 
The Adobe CS3 (Premiere Pro) mentioned a while ago would be able to do the video tasks/sync audio, but that is not intuitive to just pick up, so I would exhaust any and all SONAR/Windows Movie Maker options first.

mettelus
Voicemeeter gave me a lot of grief when I have ever tried to use it and I found that Saffires have built-in loopback, which put me in heaven. The Scarletts do not have this, but Focusrite says you can achieve the same loopback using the S/PDIF ports. That option may be the least painful to pursue, just be sure to set up your mix so that you do not cause a feedback loop.
 
For screen capture, you may want to do video only in the capture software, and all audio in SONAR. With new routing options the loopback may be totally unnecessary, but you would need a transient at both the beginning and end to stretch/shrink audio between. I have yet to find a free screen capture that doesn't require this to some extent, but admittedly do not do this often.
 
I also have never edited video in SONAR, but think you can do any stretching required of this sort there. Someone who has done so could easily confirm or not. With enough lead in/out on the ends you could align audio to video then lop the tails off in Windows Movie Maker if needed. SONAR may be able to do this as well.
 
The Adobe CS3 (Premiere Pro) mentioned a while ago would be able to do the video tasks/sync audio, but that is not intuitive to just pick up, so I would exhaust any and all SONAR/Windows Movie Maker options first.

Heh... guess I wasn't talking to myself after all (you posted as I was typing). Thanks... I will definitely be absorbing all this. I'm a little brainfried at the moment but you usually give me good shiz to explore.
 
Cheers.

Beep,
 
Feel free to PM me. But let me give the low-down on how I've done Sonar Vids.
 
Now that we have the new routing option so we can record the Master Outs on a track, this should be even easier!
 
1. I use Sonar and my RME UCX interface in their normal configuration.
2. I loopback the outputs from Sonar on the RME interface so I can record them. The RME lets me do this virtually, but you could do it with cables if you had 2 available inputs on your interface. 
3. I use Microsoft's Expression tool to record the videos. I can choose inputs from the RME or just use the Mic on my monitor. The only real purpose for this is that I am going to capture the sound to align what I capture in Sonar.
4. In sonar, I capture the outputs from the mains and the input from my Microphone.
5. I record the video and import it into Sonar. It comes in with terrible sounding audio recorded from the monitor. I usually record this using a separate tool: RME DigiCheck. This allows me to play, stop, rewind, play Sonar while still capturing the audio smoothly.
** Now that Sonar allows you to record outputs from buses, you can do that. It's important to record in real time what you are doing so the watcher of the video can tell when you change patches or VST settings and so on. The problem with recording in the same project your are demo-ing is that you will not be able to stop and backup the project without interrupting the recording.
6. I import the tracks I recorded with DigiCheck into the Sonar Project.
 
...
 
HTH. I know it's kinda complicated.
 
If I didn't have DigiCheck, I'm not sure exactly how I'd do it... Maybe try recording the loopback from the mains and the spoken word in another DAW like Audacity while recording the vid.
 

Totally loop back the spidf. That's a great idea.
 
Looks like you have a headphones out and then monitor outs. Maybe you could use headphones and loopback the monitor outs?
 
I record in DigiCheck (equivalent to Audacity for your purposes) and also in the video capture (monitor mic). So the Video imports with audio. Then I just nudge the high quality audio into position with the audio recorded with the video.

I've got Sonar recording (seemingly) properly via Voicemeeter into the Mirrilis Action vids. I have NOT yet tried recording a voice over yet because I wanted to type up this first phase so a) it is documented for others and b) I don't forget what I did (lulz)...
 
Step 1) Install all the programs.
 
The Mirrilis Action demo can be found here (click where it says "Action - Screen and Game recorder")...
 
https://mirillis.com/en/downloads/downloads.html
 
The demo is fully functional but leaves a watermark on the vids and expires in 30 days. It costs $30 for the fully licensed home use version (additional licenses are needed for multiple computers which seems to be just a few bucks for each extra license). I am still using the demo (wanted to make sure it actually worked first).
 
--------------------
 
The Voicemeeter download can be found here (you gotta scroll down to get to the download link).... I used the "Voicemeeter (ZIP package)" available here...
 
http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Voicemeeter/
 
It's "donationware" so it's "free" to use but of course tossing the dude(s) a few bucks is the decent thing to do. Looks like they worked really hard on it and it certainly does seem to work. You have to reboot your computer after installing Voicemeeter or it won't work properly.
 
Step 2) Windows sounds (note I am using Win7): Go to the Windows Control Panel > Sound > Select "Voicemeeter Input" > Click "Set to Default".
 
This of course sets VM to your default audio device (instead of your hardware interface or soundcard).
 
After that, with the Voicemeeter option selected in the "Playback" tab, click Properties > Advanced (tab in the new window that pops up) and make sure the "Default Format" matches your desired bit depth and samplerate settings for your soundcard and projects (eg: mine is currently set to 24 bit/44.1khz).
 
Close that window and go back to the previous Control Panel "Sound" window (the one where you set Voicemeeter as your default device). Click the "Recording" tab at the top of the window. Select the "Voicemeeter Output" option in the list (it should be set to the default device but if not make sure it is by clicking "Set to Default" like you did before). Click "Properties" > Listen (tab at the top of the window) and make sure "Listen to this device" is UN-checked. This apparently can cause feedback issues (mine was already unchecked so I don't know how that manifests itself). Click the "Advanced" tab (at the top of the window) and make sure the bit depth/samplerate settings match your desired settings (mine did it automatically when I set it in the other window but might as well double check).
 
In both the Playback and Recording Properties windows we just futzed with you can set input/ouput levels for windows as well. I didn't touch them but just know they are there in case you want to do some fiddling.
 
So now, for all intents and purposes, Voicemeeter is your new soundcard/interface. It seems to use your existing hardware to work similar to ASIO4all (I know, I know... sounds like a problem but so far it seems to work semi okay. I do expect to have to keep a close eye on it and maybe not try to cram huge projects through it. We'll see).
 
Step 3) Voicemeeter set up: Open the Voicemeeter application. You are going to see four distinct sections (each separated by a vertical white line).
 
Hardware Input 1
 
Hardware Input 2
 
Virtual Input
 
Hardware Out
 
---------------
 
Hardware Inputs 1 and 2: Don't touch these yet. They are the inputs for live voice over/live input stuff. They get mixed in with the final output. Don't try routing your Sonar mains to these. Just leave them alone for now (after I figure out live input I post another set of instructions).
 
BUT if you click on numbers at the top (1 or 2) you'll get a dropdown of available hardware inputs. They are generic and there is no ASIO options. Apparently WDM and KS are the better options when you do start routing mics and stuff through these sections. If anything is selected in that list choose "Remove Device Selection" from the dropdown just to keep things simple. All I'm describing is how to get Sonar transport playback into Voicemeeter so it can be tapped by Mirillis Action (or other programs).
 
Virtual Input: This is where sh*t happens. There is no user defineable input selection for this. What it is is essentially the section where you route OTHER programs into. So you don't select an input here inside Voicemeeter. You select this input inside your OTHER programs (like Sonar). These inputs will show up in your Sonar output options. So you would route your Sonar Main outs (or whatever you want) into this section. It'll also be snagging anything else going on audiowise on your system (because Voicemeeter is now your default sound device). So things like Windows Media Player or system sounds or whatever should route to this section. You'll see the meters light up when it receives signal. It can take 8 channels but we only want 2 (stereo) for now because it gets really complicated beyond that. You should only see the first two LED's light up once we are done. Leave the big green A and B buttons lit up (these enable/disable the output of the incoming tracks to the main Voicemeeter outs).
 
Hardware Out: In this section two things are going on. You have your Hardware outputs A1 and A2 (which go to your interface so you can listen back to everything from your soundcard/interface with headphones/monitors) and you have your "Virtual" output (shown as "Virtual Out B" this is what other programs tap to record or whatever.... so in this case Mirillis Action will be recording the Virtual output).
 
Just click the "A1" button in teh Hardware Output section and select your desired hardware audio output. So in my case I have a Scarlett 18i6 so I chose that. This list also gives you multiple driver options so I of course shose the ASIO driver options for my 18i6. This seems to be the ONLY place anywhere in Voicemeeter where you can actually choose an ASIO driver. I'm not sure if it is virtual ASIO or real ASIO but it was there so I chose that and it works.
 
If you click on the "A2" button though there is no ASIO options. I am not quite sure exactly what that is supposed to be routed to or why it's different than A1 but it doesn't matter. We don't need it for this. If anything is selected int eh A2 dropdown choose "remove device selection". Any time I added anything to output A2 I got wicked slapback echo, feedback and audio glitches. Just make sure it isn't routed to anything and totally ignore it.
 
As for the "Virtual Out" there are no options to send that anywhere in Voicemeeter. It is another output that you select inside OTHER programs. In my case I will be tapping that virtual output to add audio to my Mirillis video. I'd imagine I could also tap this to record into a track inside Sonar or other audio programs. There are various buttons down the side of both the A and B outs. They do all sorts of wacky stuff but for now just leave them all disabled.
 
Step 4) Sonar settings: In Sonar...
 
a) Go to Edit > Preferences > Audio - Devices. Here you should see all the Voicemeeter Input and Output options in your available audio devices list. They will likely be grayed out and unselectable. Deselect ALL your other audio inputs and outputs. The Voicemeeter ins and outs should become available for selection. Select all the Voicemeeter inputs and outputs. Voicemeeter is now your default audio device for Sonar. It is still using your interface hardware (somehow... but don't ask me how... lulz) but Sonar is now using Voicemeeter exclusively. 
 
Click OK
 
You will likely get a missing input/output - replace input/output warning. Sonar will want to replace these with the new Voicemeeter connections. Allow it to do so... AFTER you read the following...VVVVV
 
WARNING!!!: please note that my current project didn't have much being routed outward. There weren't any major inputs going on. It only had to replace the main outs on this project (so it seemed). It was easily reversible because Sonar seems smart enough to recall what was there before and/or know what to reach out to on my system but I have no idea what can happen to a more complex routing scheme. PROCEED WITH CAUTION!!!! Mmmkay?
 
I take no responsibility to any damage you do to your project(s). Probably best to do a Save As before futzing with all this anyway but don't assume that provides total protection.
 
Okay... so now you should be able to hit play on your recording and see it in the meters inside Voicemeeter and hear it through your headphones/monitors (if you hooked it all up correctly).
 
b) In Preferences > Audio - Playback and Recording there is a checkbox called "Share Drivers With Other Programs". I thought I had this enabled and that was necessary for all this to work but apparently it is currently disabled (and it is still working) so whatever... I just wanted to take a second to point out where this is in case it needs to be futzed with for whatever wacky stuff you guys get up to. This is also the page where you set your driver mode for Sonar. I have it set to ASIO (which is the entire point of using Voicemeeter). Works fine.
 
Step 5) Mirillis Action sound setup: In Mirillis Action click on the last tab at the top right of the program window (looks like a Gear and is the "Settings" tab). Underneath the first set of tabs (at the top) another set of tabs appears. Select the tab that looks like a speaker icon (Audio Settings).
 
In this section under "Microphone Settings" click the "Audio Device" dropdown menu and choose the Voicemeeter Output option. This is the only option currently available to me. I have a feeling based on some of the fancier options in  Voicemeeter I might be able to get more options for multi channel stuff but I just want the first main outs from VM. Also I am not sure if this is the actually input from Sonar/Voicemeeter/whatever that gets recorded to the video. Might just be a separate internal channel for a separate mic. This is what I have it set to though and all is working.
 
IMPORTANT!! Disable the checkbox that says "Record Microphone Into Separate Audio Track". I am not sure why but this option, if checked, completely makes it so any vids recorded have NO audio. So when I play back my vids there is no sound. This is supposed to create a separate audio track of the sound input but I have no idea where it ends up (yet... still learning) but it sure doesn't end up on the vid nor does it appear in the Mirillis file window. I'll keep digging to find out why. Just keep it unchecked for now.
 
In the next section "System Sounds" click the "Audio Devices" dropdown menu and again select the Voicemeeter entry (Voicemeeter Input). Again nt sure if this is the signal that gets recorded or the one that gets outputted from the Mirillis player. Either way it's what I currently have checked and it seems to be working.
 
 
===============================================================
 
Okay... long post is  looooooooooong but I think I covered it all. All that needs to happen after that is activating record in Mirillis Action and starting playback in Sonar. The screen will be recorded as video and Sonar's output will be recorded to the vid (via voicemeeter).
 
This does seem to be a delicate balance and I've had some glitches (similar to how ASIO4all reacts but not as bad). I don't think HUGE projects will like all this virtual ASIO routing and video software going all at once but as always it's all about common sense and making sure the system isn't getting crushed.
 
 
I will update once I check out the voice over scheme. I am guessing at this point it should be pretty easy.
 
 
Cheers and I hope maybe that helps someone.
 
Perhaps I should make a VID of how to do this crap... lulzity11eleven.
 
:-D

Definitely getting some audio glitches once I get to the actual video recording stage. Nothing too crazy and I am cranking a semi heavy duty project through it all but I'll definitely have to be careful and Voicemeeter does indeed seem to be an ASIO wrapper of some sort.
 
It does however allow Sonar to remain set to ASIO so... that's odd. Either way the vid and sound quality is good. I'm just getting the occasional audio hiccup (no video glitches thus far... Action! is supposed to be for game recording so is designed to handle crazy video shiz... which is why I'm demoing it).
 
Taking a break before I tackle the voice over stuff.

Awesome progress Beeps. The slap back echo may be coming from your MixControl, as you could have both the input channel and DAW monitored there (I would actually mute the DAW track being recorded and monitor the input channel only).
 
I also wanted to give a quick thank you to vburel for chiming in, and will probably end up PMing him (since he posted) as this comment (to me) is the best answer to real-time, long-distance collaboration...
 

vburel
 
Additional I/O will help to connect USB MIC, VOIP or any Recorder application.

Fact is, there is now a truckload of free VOIP available with low latency (on even rudimentary gear). Voicemeeter popped up as the "most viable intermediary" for me, but I did not delve deeply into it and obviously did not get the nuances I needed, although believe it has everything.
 
Just to get the rest of that idea in this post, here is a similar post I made with the crux of the idea. All of the piece parts exists now, I think, and Voicemeeter may be the "glue that binds," as it were, but folks separated by distance shouldn't need to cart stuff hundreds of miles for a "jam session."

I once had an audio interface from ESI : Maya 44e
( i do not have it any more, too bad... )

There's a new version called Maya 44XTe 

now the good thing about the Audio interface / sound card is DirectWire
you can easy route your Asio output, to windows  MME or WDM

Viola... problem solved . no need for installing other drivers, software or changes
to your system settings at all.

Just do your screen recording... wish all audio interfaces had DirectWire. 

DirectWire picture



Just as simple as that...

Beepster
Unless of course you don't own one of those cards...
 ;-)
 

Exactly .. 

Echo card ? i donno.. the company is called ESI Audio a german company : ESI Audiotechnik GmbH

I do not have that soundcard anymore , but DirectWire was sooo nice
just took seconds to patch the the audio routing in it's driver/setup panel.

So now what I am trying to do is get individual outputs from Voicemeeter to expose themselves in Mirillis Action! (or other recording programs). That way I can record the voiceover mic into a separate track from the Sonar (and system) audio. Currently I can only tap one virtual output from VM in Mirillis. That has both the mic and Sonar output mixed together and they get recorded on one track in the Action! video. Action! can record these separately IF it is able to access two separate outs (one for the mic and one for the system sounds). Those two audio files then need to be stripped from the vid to be accessible as individual tracks but that's another problem I'm working on.
 
So far the two possible solutions I've concocted but have not tested yet is to see if the "Composite" function on the Virtual output bus in Voicemeeter will separate the mic input and the Sonar input into their own channels. Then it just becomes a matter of whether doing this will expose those separate channels inside Action! audio preferences.
 
I'm not so confident that will be the case.
 
The other option might be the Virtual Cable program on the VBaudio site (same guy(s) who make Voicemeeter). Perhaps if I install that and select it as a hardware output option in Voicemeeter output section THAT will expose itself to Action!
 
Then it's a matter of figuring out how to send the Mic signal to the Virtual cable and Sonar to the Main virtual outs... which may or may not work.
 
Soooo... if anyone has set something like this up before and can offer suggestions that'd be great.
 
I'm starting to think though maybe this level of routing might require their paid software (Banana).
 
Aside from that everything is working well and I've got some other wacky schemes I can try too that are much more elaborate but I would like to avoid if I can.
 
One off thing though... for some reason in my video recordings the meters in Sonar are grey instead of green. They flash green for a second if I scroll around while recording but mostly show up grey. All the other colors are fine. Weird. I tried all the video quality/speed settings and nothing helped. Not a huge deal but yanno... kind of a drag.
 
Cheers.

vburel

BeepsterSo far the two possible solutions I've concocted but have not tested yet is to see if the "Composite" function on the Virtual output bus in Voicemeeter will separate the mic input and the Sonar input into their own channels.

yes, sure, it's the best option if recording with an ASIO DAW. the USE CASE #3 in the Voicemeeter User Manual explain how to record the 3 inputs on separates stereo tracks with Reaper, but i guess it's the same principle with Sonar.
 
In Voicemeeter Banana, the Composite mode can be user defined (in the system settings dialog box). It is possible to set the Voicemeeter Input channel you want to have in the possible 8 output channels of the BUS.
 
 

Cool. Not sure how I missed that one in the manual. Thing is Mirillis Action! so far is only showing one option for Voicemeeter in both the Mic and output options (it is also only showing one option for my Scarlett interface as well).
 
So this may be a limitation in Action! BUT I'll try the composite button to see if it somehow routes it automatically.
 
Otherwise maybe using the Virtual Cable can get the mic into the second video channel. I'm assuming the Virtual Cable will show up as another input option in Action!.
 
Thanks for your help (and the program). I'll update this thread as I progress.
 
 
Cheers.
 
Edit: and just so it's clear I'm not trying to record the output of Voicemeeter into Sonar. I am trying to record it into Mirillis Action!'s two audio tracks. I want Sonar playback and system sounds on one of the video audio tracks and my live mic input (voiceover) on the other video audio track. Action! just does not seem to allow for choosing specific channels. Just the entire sound device.
 
Maybe Banana would clear that up. Otherwise I may have to bring in another program to record the live mic like Audacity.

Okay, so I tried out a bunch of stuff to get the mic in the second audio track in Mirrilis and nothing worked. It either resulted in what I've been currently getting which is either all audio on one of the two audio tracks (while the other remained silent) or no audio at all. I think this must be a limitation of Action! and the fact it does not allow you to choose separate input channels. Just bulk devices. Disappointing.
 
I am of course able to see the multiple output channels from Voicemeeter in Sonar though so they are indeed there.
 
The only option I have not tried yet is downloading the Virtual Cable and setting it up as an extra source for Mirillis to latch onto. I cannot yet visualize how that would work so I'll just keep reading.
 
However I may just try tapping the Voicemeeter outputs in a second audio recorder (something light like Audacity). I can see this getting a little hard on the system though.

I actually got it all sorted (in my other thread... just too brainfried to fully update here with steps) BUT the impression I am getting is that when other people make these vids they don't use ASIO. So that allows two hardware devices to run at the same time.
 
Like all the vids I see talk about having the soundcard dealing with the system/game/program sounds and then they have a USB mic or external soundcard for the voiceover.
 
With WDM or MME that seems to be okay. Obviously I want to use ASIO for Sonar because it turns into a pile of poop otherwise (but with Win10 that may have changed with the audio improvements... I am of course still on 7 and all my projects are in ASIO and switching driver modes just broke EVERYTHING).
 
What Mirillis seems to be expecting is two interfaces. It doesn't expose individual ins/outs for hardware or virtual i/o. All it shows is the device and I guess just snags the first output. So a soundcard and a USB mic could be selected seperately in the two options (for mic and sys sounds). Running through the same device, even with Voicemeeter, just doeasn't work and everything gets jammed into one track no matter what.
 
The solution I've cooked up is to simply record the "composite" outputs from Voicemeeter into Reaper. VM with Composite enabled on the virtual output bus outputs the hardware inputs (VM 1 and 2) and the Virtual Input on their own stereo channels AND another stereo channel that outputs everything as usual.
 
In Reaper I just set up a couple of tracks to accept the feeds from the mic bus and the virtual bus and bingo bango... I get the system sounds separate from the mic sound. I could also set up another two tracks and snag the MAIN bus (with everything) and the other hardware input channel (which I am not currently using but I could do something like hook a guitar up to it through my Scarlett or something).
 
In Mirillis Action! I just let it record the first Voicemeeter bus (the main that crams everything together). I can use that as kind of a "bed track" to line up the tracks from Reaper to when I get to the editing stage.
 
Really wacky stuff but it's workin'.
 
Tenacity indeed.
 
lulzity!!!
 
Cheers, dude.
 
PS: The reason I went with Mirillis Action! is because it apparently has the lowest resource consumption with the best screencast quality. It's only $30 too.
 
Everything else (including Hypercam which is what Craig said he uses) has something or other wrong with it (Hypercam is now apparently a malware farm... ugh). None support ASIO (or so I've been gleaning).
 
The BEST of the best though and the one the Baker's apparently use is Camtasia... but that's $300 so that's out of my price range. It however also does editing and a bunch of other crap. Might even support ASIO.