Long save times when comping midi drum parts

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adittemore
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2015/11/26 14:17:46 (permalink)
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Long save times when comping midi drum parts

Hello all. I've got a consistent problem where it takes 3 to 4 minutes to save a project when comping midi drum sequences. I can hear the system hit the disk a bit to save, then pause, hit, pause, for about 2/3rds of that time, then eventually it seems to kick in and get the save done.
 
I use an acoustic kit converted for midi, using Megadrum and BFD3. Everything works fine laying the drum parts. The problem occurs when I start comping the takes. As soon as I start to chop things up the saves start taking forever. No editing in the PRV involved, the issue occurs as soon as I start splitting takes up. This is consistently occurring in multiple project files, old and new,  for at least the last two months, possibly well before.
 
I don't yet know if this happens on comped audio tracks. My initial tests show that it does not but I suspect my testing has not been thorough. 
 
System specs are very solid. i7, 32gb, win7 64, fireface UCX, kingston. Clean, pro system, no bs. Honorable mention to the vh-11 hi-hit on the midi kit which seems to put out an abundance of CC#4 data. Perhaps this has something to do with it? Maybe something is having a hard time going through the CC data? I've tried using the CAL script to thin controller data with zero luck. Unsure if this script still works or ?
 
Hoping some advice or light at the end of the tunnel on this. I haven't been able to find a single report of extended save times so hopefully I've just been searching badly. It's a complete drag on a session when each save takes 3+ minutes. Need to love the save, repeatedly, not fear it.
 
Thanks much.
Alex
post edited by adittemore - 2015/11/26 14:28:54
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/11/26 23:55:25 (permalink)
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    Try disabling Non-destructive MIDI Editing in Preferences > Editing. Each split with this option enabled effectively creates two slip-edited instances of the entire clip, continuously adding a clip's worth of events that have to be tracked and saved with every split.
     
     

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    #2
    adittemore
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/11/27 15:11:32 (permalink)
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    Great suggestion. That sounds utterly reasonable. Thanks! Sounds like will need to set this option before comping the drum parts in a project. I'll do so on the next one and report back.
     
    Thanks again.
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    adittemore
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/12/17 21:19:43 (permalink)
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    Disabling non-destructive midi editing did the trick but no slip editing makes comping a pain. Better to just put up with the long saves. I will play with this a little more as time allows and see what I can come up with. At least we know who the culprit is. Maybe there's a way to make this perform better.
    #4
    brundlefly
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/12/18 13:07:21 (permalink)
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    Strategic use of bounce to clips on finished sections might help. But in general, I find comping MIDI to be inherently problematic because of the impossibility of using crossfades or having a note event that's active in one lane mute the sound of the same note in another lane that started a millisecond or two earlier as happens automatically when comping audio. Throw controllers into the mix, and it gets to be really unworkable.
     
    Ultimately, I prefer to just use conventional MIDI editing operations, working with a very limited number of close-to-perfect takes, and just re-record sections that have too many problems (easy to do if it's your own performance) rather than trying to pick and choose small sections of many similar takes. Being able to freely edit/add/delete/move/copy events after the fact rather than trying to kluge together a good take from a bunch of unsatisfactory ones is the beauty of MIDI.
     
    Of course drums are a special case because duration doesn't matter, which makes things easier in some ways, but there are still challenges to using a comping workflow, especially if you have more than a couple takes to work with.

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    #5
    adittemore
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/12/18 16:41:26 (permalink)
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    Agreed on midi comping. I don't have too many issues since most of my midi work is with drums. Controllers between clips are definitely a pain but still beats editing a bad drum hit on tape. Drum and cymbal tails that magically flow from one edit to another make it pretty easy overall.
     
    This particular project has about 10 midi drum takes. The save time became noticeably slow after about half a dozen comps. The PRV also becomes completely unusable, workaround being to pull a midi clip into another track, then PRV edit from there. I can't find a way to isolate just one take lane or, ideally, a single clip, in the PRV.
     
    I think much of this could have to do with CC#4 data. Will test as possible. Does anyone know if that CAL script to thin controller data still works? I bet there would be no noticeable difference in these drum tracks after removing 50%+ of the CC#4 data. I used to run that script years ago when hihat controllers got crowded but it doesn't seem to be doing anything now.
     
    Also I notice that we're both using nVidia 630s and I'd bet yours is also fanless. I've wondered if a beefier video card might render tons of controllers in the PRV with less trouble. Doubt this would affect save time issue but maybe something else to look at.
     
    There are not many problem reports on this so the root cause could be the midi data itself. The real fix may be to better tune the vh-11/megadrum combination to produce far less CC#4 data.
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    adittemore
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/12/18 17:06:15 (permalink)
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    Quick comment: Comping is what sets Sonar well above Pro Tools for me. Even with these bugs it's a great, unique feature that is much faster than any other possible solution. It's a go-to for basic edits and, when these issues aren't roadblocking, it's a fantastic creative tool with a very smooth workflow. I would love to see Sonar continue to evolve here. There are a ton of possibilities.
     
    Like, say a "mirror comp" feature that could take the comp chops from one track and apply them to another, identical track. Would save a ton of time working comps on multiple mics.
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    stevec
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    Re: Long save times when comping midi drum parts 2015/12/18 17:40:31 (permalink)
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    adittemore
    ...I would love to see Sonar continue to evolve here. There are a ton of possibilities.
    Like, say a "mirror comp" feature that could take the comp chops from one track and apply them to another, identical track. Would save a ton of time working comps on multiple mics.




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