Andrzej Salm
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 94
- Joined: 2015/03/17 16:28:52
- Status: offline
Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
Hi, I am currently working on a remote recording session. My drummer and guitarist send me the tracks they have recorded at home for editing. After my work is done I send the edited tracks back to them as mp3's via email so they can import them into their DAWs and have a listen before I upload the tracks as waves to Dropbox. We have encountered a strange problem with the .mp3 tracks not being aligned properly. So, to check if the problem is caused by Sonar I've created a new one track project with a single snare hit and exported it as a .wav and then as a mp3. I imported them both into the project and the mp3 track has a significant delay... Is there a setting to compensate for the delay? If not, then it makes the mp3 encoder I've bought from Cakewalk completely useless for me. Thanks in advance  
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 01:54:15
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2015/11/29 05:24:28
This came up recently. All MP3 compression algorithms add some "dead air" to the front of the file. It's unavoidable.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
|
KingsMix
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 498
- Joined: 2015/08/20 00:56:10
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 02:08:19
(permalink)
Try Audacity with LAME MP3 Encoder
|
Soundwise
Max Output Level: -62 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1419
- Joined: 2015/01/25 17:11:34
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 05:13:53
(permalink)
brundlefly
This came up recently. All MP3 compression algorithms add some "dead air" to the front of the file. It's unavoidable.
This^^
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 08:29:38
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby FreeFlyBertl 2015/11/30 07:29:23
+1, it is the format, not the encoder. If they plan to work to that mp3, it would be easier to insert a transient on the lead of the track to make alignment simpler (bar before the actual start). Other than that "nudge" they should align without issues.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
BobF
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8124
- Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
- Location: Missouri - USA
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 08:39:21
(permalink)
A group I occasionally collab with uses a brief sync tone on the downbeat 2 measures before the start of the tune.
Makes it really easy to line things up as we swap/import tracks.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 11:22:36
(permalink)
Ever notice how when you convert a live recording that has CD markers in between cuts to an MP3 file there are gaps between the cuts? Same thing. I heard something about Windows 10's media player having a way to get around this on playback, but that won't affect how SONAR deals with MP3s, nor does it alter the file format itself.
|
Andrzej Salm
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 94
- Joined: 2015/03/17 16:28:52
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 15:47:10
(permalink)
Thank you for your replies.
Well, I'm that kind of guy who likes to dig deep...
I spent a few minutes investigating the problem a bit deeper today and came to interesting conclusions.
I created a new project, imported a sample and moved it to the second measure.
I started exporting audio in different mp3 bit rates and with different audio quality. Then, I imported the created clips to separate tracks.
The delay is the same in 32, 40, 48 and 56kbs. It increases but stays constant in 64-320kbs.
The quality setting ranging from 0-5 in the menu has no impact on the delay. Ticking the "variable bit rate" box does not impact the delay either.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that some sort of simple algorithm could be developed to compensate for the delay since it's constant across two ranges of bit rates...
I would imagine that the delay would be different when using a different encoder.
I've paid for the encoder. I've bought Sonar too. Since the encoder is being sold by Cakewalk I expect it to work properly with Sonar.
|
Andrzej Salm
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 94
- Joined: 2015/03/17 16:28:52
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 15:49:24
(permalink)
For some strange reason the screenshot link has not been included in my previous post. Here it is, so you can see what I'm talking about: 
|
gustabo
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2591
- Joined: 2009/01/05 17:32:38
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 16:13:54
(permalink)
As others have said, it's the format, not Sonar.
It's working properly.
Export as a wav, convert it to an mp3 in another program, you'll end up with the same result.
Sonar is working properly...
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
M-Audio Keystation 88ES - Akai MPD26 (hot-rodded) - Alesis DM10 - a few guitars, a few amps
Novation Launch Control - Korg nanoKONTROL2 - PreSonus FaderPort - DAW Remote HD on iPad
Adam A7X - Behritone C50A
PreSonus Monitor Station v2 (controlling the mons)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonarusergroup/
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 17:10:20
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/11/30 05:48:34
Andrzej Salm
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that some sort of simple algorithm could be developed to compensate for the delay since it's constant across two ranges of bit rates...
I would imagine that the delay would be different when using a different encoder.
I've paid for the encoder. I've bought Sonar too. Since the encoder is being sold by Cakewalk I expect it to work properly with Sonar. As has already been said, your complaint should be aimed at the mp3 file format specification, not Sonar. All mp3 encoders leave a small silence at the beginning of the file. It's called pre-delay. Mp3 encoding is done in fixed-size blocks of data and therefore if the data doesn't entirely and exactly fill a round number of blocks it gets padded out with zeros - that is, silence - so that it does. Encoders tend to put the silence at the beginning of the file so the file ends on a full block, or as near full a block as possible. Some encoders, such as Lame, can add to the file the length of the pre-delay, but not all decoders can read or use that data. Pre-delay also varies, as you have discovered. Not just with bit rate but between different encoders as well. Sonar, being designed for professional use, places the mp3 where ever you put it and rather than second-guess things just decodes and plays the file. If it's necessary to correct playback for pre-delay then just nudge the data so the noise starts when it should. We're only talking of a small fraction of a second usually anyway. Or convert the mp3 back to a wave then trim and nudge as required. There's plenty of information on the web about the mp3 file format and encoding if you want to dig deeper into this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#File_structurePersonally I don't use Sonar to convert audio to mp3, simply because I'm lazy and since I've exported a wave file anyway I usually just let iTunes do the conversion. After all, it's free. As is LAME for that matter.
post edited by tlw - 2015/11/29 17:22:12
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5694
- Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
- Location: Richmond Virginia USA
- Status: offline
Re: Exporting track as .mp3 - useless?
2015/11/29 23:01:47
(permalink)
You said you exported the same segment as wave and MP3.
Just click on those clips and get the length measurement from the clips pane on the inspector. Subtract one from the other and see if that difference isn't your offset.
Use channel tools in front of the wave clip to offset the measured amount then flip the phase/polarity on one of the two and see how well the tracks cancel. You should not expect it to be perfect zero cancel, but it will give a pretty good indication.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
|