AnsweredCan anyone tell me what this noise is?

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guitarblah
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2015/11/28 17:45:22 (permalink)

Can anyone tell me what this noise is?

I got so much help here the other day that I wanted to post this one (though not sure
if it's the right section).
 
Noise:   http://picosong.com/download/bNq7/
 
It is happening on the audio signal from my electronic drum kit (Roland TD-20).
It's soft when the actual drum sounds are playing (which I'm triggering from midi), but
I'm tracking each drum separately and it adds up.
NOTE: I have isolated and boosted it a lot (so you can hear it clearly).
 
I have tried switching the power sockets I'm plugging in to but it doesn't sound like simply
ground noise anyway (at least with the clip I just heard online). - Of supposed ground noise.
 
It covers an annoyingly large spectrum so will be hard to digitally remove.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Spectral analysis:

 
 
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/28 20:58:55
#1
BobF
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 17:48:43 (permalink)
Florescent lights.  Dimmers.  Bad cable shielding.

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#2
guitarblah
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 17:53:54 (permalink)
BobF
Florescent lights.  Dimmers.  Bad cable shielding.

No reason for it to be any of those in my setup.
Top of the range cables, and I don't have dimmers or florescent lights.
 
Am I correct in believing this is not ground noise?
 
Also: If I take one of the leads out of the unit this signal doubles in strength on the remaining lead (not sure if that means anything).
 
EDIT: It's definitely power related, if I monitor the track (with everything boosted) and have the unit turned off it's still basically as loud. As soon as I disconnect the power cable it stops..
 
As a solution (if nothing physical can be done):  I guess I could create a lot of EQ plugins and reading the spectral analysis try to match/reverse each spike (in the exact amount)?
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/28 18:13:50
#3
BobF
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 18:29:03 (permalink)
Top of the range cables doesn't mean there can't be a defect.
 
Sorry, that was my full load of ideas.

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#4
Adq
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 20:07:03 (permalink)
I had something like that when AC power adapter was too close to the audio cables.
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stickman393
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 20:25:29 (permalink)
Did you remove the .mp3? Without hearing it, it is hard to know what it is - some kind of interference, I infer.
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guitarblah
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 20:47:25 (permalink)
stickman393
Did you remove the .mp3? Without hearing it, it is hard to know what it is - some kind of interference, I infer.


No but I haven't used that site before. It looks like they changed their internal reference for it for some reason.
It has a new link now so I will just link the page the links will always be on:
Will change the link in the first comment also.
 
http://picosong.com/download/bNq7/
 
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/28 21:00:51
#7
ricoskyl
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/28 20:54:00 (permalink)
I encountered a problem like this when I had a polarity problem in my power lines.  Everything checked out fine, but with some equipment it created a buzz.
 
There are cheap circuit checkers available at hardware stores that will show ground faults, polarity problems and other issues. http: // www.amazon.com/GE-50542-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester/dp/B002LZTKIA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448761735&sr=8-1&keywords=circuit+checker.  The pattern of lights on the device correlates to the circuit problem.  It's a handy tool and worth $5 - $8.

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slartabartfast
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 00:00:05 (permalink)
I am hearing a faint Lumber Liquidator's commercial after the loudest buzzing stops. That would lead me to think you are picking up interference from something in your setup or wiring acting as an antenna if this is really coming from a drum set and not a cheap radio. 
#9
rabeach
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 00:50:47 (permalink)
What you describe above e.g. doubling and the power cord would lead me to look for a ground loop. The audio sounds like electric hum that has been filtered. I don't see a 120 Hz peak on the spectral analysis. The sonitus equalizer has a Hum Removal (50 Hz) and a Hum Removal (60 Hz) preset that should get rid of most of it. You might have to play around with the frequencies but keep the stopband narrow (high Q). 
#10
kellerpj
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 00:55:17 (permalink)
guitarblah:
 
My speculation is that it's interference from a power supply.  I don't think it's primarily ground noise. 
One thing to ask, do you have any laser printers powered from the same circuit?  They are particularly noisy.
 
Sorry I can't be more definitive,
Paul

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stickman393
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 01:41:43 (permalink)
Wow, that does not sound like ground noise. It could be an impending component failure of some kind. 
 
At least you've isolated it to the drum module...
 
Is it feasible to try a different sound source in place of the drums? Just to make sure it is the module and not the cables running back and forth. 
post edited by stickman393 - 2015/11/29 01:55:22
#12
Bassman002
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 04:13:34 (permalink)
HI:)
 
Sounds exactly like when you put a Handy near a speaker or an amplifier!
 
Bassman.
 
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promidi
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 04:57:45 (permalink)
I would have thought that if it was ground loop, it would manifest with a 60hz component. In this noise, there is none.  The fundamental frequency of this sound comes in at around 250hz.  Can you hear the sound when you plug headphones directly into the TD20.  One thing you could do is put a gate on the TD20 drum track.  Not ideal, but at least you can quieten it down a bot when there are no drum sounds playing...

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rabeach
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 17:31:43 (permalink)
The Roland support page for the TD-20 states the outputs are unbalanced. How long are the cables you are using? Are they running parallel to any power cables? The spectral analysis is almost a perfect electrical hum spectrum minus the 120 Hz fundamental. Because of the characteristics of the magnetic flux density (assuming the noise is from parallel power cables) the fundamental frequency will be twice the electrical frequency. It could be component failure or just the cables on the unbalanced outputs picking up electrical hum. There are a lot of post on the web about electric hum on the unbalanced outputs of the TD-20. The signal we are listening to has been amplified by the OP. 
post edited by rabeach - 2015/11/29 17:56:33
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jpetersen
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 18:14:39 (permalink)
Switching power supply noise due to ground loop.
To test, get an extension cord and disconnect the earth on one side.
Connect your computer to the mains through this doctored extension cord.
 
Connect only your computer with this cord, not any active monitors or any other gear you might have.
 
To be safe, don't touch any metal parts of your computer, and switch on.
If the buzz is gone, it's a ground loop.
 
NOW REMOVE THE EXTENSION CORD FROM THE MAINS AND RECONNECT THE EARTH BEFORE YOU FORGET AND USE THIS CORD SOMEWHERE ELSE!
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rabeach
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 19:25:50 (permalink)
Although the trouble shooting method stated above is something I might use in a controlled environment you could be electrocuted if you do not know what you are doing. It is never recommended to remove the ground from a piece of equipment that is designed around having one. In other words you could become the ground and the current will flow through you. Electric current cause muscles to contract and can make it impossible to let go. Your heart is a muscle and it only takes a few 1000th of an amp to cause it to contract and stop beating. 1/10th of an amp for a second or two to cause death. A switching mode power supply in a pc uses the ground from the main distribution panel for the incoming filters and that ground is also bonded to the case of the power supply which comes in contact with the case of the pc.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/29 19:51:19 (permalink)
My question is do you still hear the noise if the Drum Module is the only thing plugged in. 
 
In other words to trouble shoot you need to test each component indavidually as possible. 
 
It could be the USB cable ( or midi) connection to your computer. SO get all that out of there and test it as stand alone. Use a little mixer to test the output leads, or at least put your interface in stand alone by disconecting the USB cable. 

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guitarblah
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/30 13:17:56 (permalink)
Hi guys, thanks for all the responses.
 
I have done a lot of testing. Changing cords, sockets, and adapters, and plugging my headphones into different things.
 
These are the results:
The signal ONLY happens when the sound card is being accessed (by a program), and ONLY if at the same time the drum module is plugged in (to the desk). If the drum module is turned on, the signal is about 60% stronger than when it's off.
When I say accessed by a program, I mean it will happen the entire time sonar is on.
It will happen if I have windows media player open (alone).
If I adjust the windows volume using the slider in the bottom right of my computer (to create the single test beep), it will happen during the test beep duration (stopping immediately after).
Again the drum module has to be at least plugged in for the above to cause it.
 
It's not triggered by cpu use as opening/using non-audio programs doesn't trigger it.
 
 
If I'm not mistaken this is going to be too difficult to figure out though I thought I should report that here anyway.
I think I have figured out a reasonable approach to removing it with EQ..
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/30 13:33:34
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tlw
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/30 14:13:58 (permalink)
Like everyone else, I'll say it's most likely switching psu interference of some kind. I know this sounds strange, but what happens if you plug the drum module into the interface with the module not connected to power - i.e. with it's psu not even plugged in to the mains, or the switch at the mains turned off? The idea is that the psu will be functioning and therefore emitting emf so long as it's receiving mains, even if the module itself is switched off.
 
Is there any connection from module to PC, e.g. MIDI or USB? If so, does the noise still occur if that connection isn't plugged in?
 
If noise, then suspect radio interference from something being picked up by the module or cables and a different cable length might resolve the problem. Or not. As might using a DI box and using that to lift the earth (ground) between mixer and module. If no noise, then the module's psu noise is leaking through the module. Either can be a real pain to try and sort out though :-/
 
If it's quiet enough that it's not noticeable during drum hits gating it out might be a better solution than eq. Or a combination of gating and eq.

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scottfa
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/30 17:16:46 (permalink)
I had strange constant noise when using my rear USB3 ports. Switched to the USB2 ports and the noise stopped. There have been several updates to the USB3 driver since then but I haven't tried it out. Easy enough to check if that  is your problem it seems.

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Atsuko
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/30 17:46:03 (permalink)
Even with RX 5 Adv, it's very difficult to clean the noises, there're all kinds: humm, buzz, cliping, distortion, radio interference...

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jpetersen
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/11/30 22:46:52 (permalink)
> The signal ONLY happens when the sound card is being accessed (by a program),
> and ONLY if at the same time the drum module is plugged in (to the desk).
 
It's a switching supply ground loop between those devices.
Filtering will yield disappointing results. Fix the ground loop.
 
Edit: If lifting the ground makes you nervous (as it should), then get an isolating
transformer and remove the ground loop on the signal side.
 
I get good results with the Behringer MicroHD HD400. I have several.
Connect the cables from the drum module to it, and then connect the
outputs to your desk.
 
post edited by jpetersen - 2015/11/30 23:14:41
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Cactus Music
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/01 10:39:21 (permalink)
You only mention "plugged into the desk"  This implies an audio cable?? the power supply? 
Have you tried disconecting the USB cable? 
 
I get a crackling noise in my system , only when the audio engin is running, just like you are discribing. Every move you make with a mouse causes a buzzing too. 
I slowly eliminated each component and swapped out gear and I isolated it to my old Yamaha P 2100 Power amp. Go figure. Remove the power amp from the chain , crackling gone. 
 
But my point is you need to isolate each component.  The Drum module has a headphone output ,, right? try that in stand alone. 
Then hook up the USB cable..
Then try a different computer...on and on 
 

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#24
millzy
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/01 17:40:03 (permalink)
Any mobile phone sitting near the drum module or on the desk?

Millzy

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SilkTone
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/02 10:12:23 (permalink)
I had similar noise and I believe it was due to a ground loop picking up digital signals like USB packets, or other high frequency digital signals causing modulation into the audible spectrum (like AM). You can often change the sound by just moving your mouse around for instance.
 
As suggested by jpeterson and others, the best solution is probably to ground lift the audio signals using something like the Behringer MicroHD HD400 ($25 on Amazon). In my case it completely solved the problem.

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guitarblah
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/03 06:45:06 (permalink)
Hey, I didn't get notified about the last few replies for some reason.
 
I'm really on a deadline and can't afford to try any further things (and I had/have already done
all the tests recommended above). - Except the hardware hum-filter.
 
The solution I had in mind was using the LP-64 Equalizer (which I could use to match the spectral pattern in reverse). I thought that I would be able to adjust the wet/dry levels of it however it only has a master output knob.
It's going to be hard to predict how intensely to apply it as I'm layering 11 different drum layers (which I'm tracking separately for total control).
 
If anyone knows either an alternate (similar) EQ I could use (with a wet/dry option), or how to use this still I would
appreciate it. - Could it be done with some kind of send setup?  ***I have never used send knobs in a production
and wouldn't know how to apply it here.
 
 
Thanks.
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tlw
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/03 08:20:23 (permalink)
You might try the trial version of Adobe Audition. Audition has pretty good noise reduction/removal, especially if used moderately for several passes over the audio rather than trying to remove all the noise in one go. I might be wrong but I think the trial version is fully featured until it expires after 30 fays.

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Atsuko
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/03 08:52:20 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby guitarblah 2015/12/04 13:14:47
You can also try iZotope RX5.  I couldn't do much with the files you've made available but I think you can have very nice results with the original files.

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stxx
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Re: Can anyone tell me what this noise is? 2015/12/04 10:23:15 (permalink)
That noise will ruin any sound so you need to track it down.  Have you unplugged EVERYTHING and added things back one by one.  This includes the power.   I've had just about every type of noise at one time or another and that strategy ALWAYS tracks down the culprit.   Its not a trivial operation but in the end, you also get the opportunity to unscramble what has likely become a mess of cables.  Also, being digital, do you need to sync it in any way?  I would say it is related to power and is exacerbated when you plug in the drum module.   Again, unplug EVERYTHING, then reconnect the most basic stuff like interface and monitor so you can hear and then start from there.  Maybe go withthe drums next as they seem to be triggering the issue and then one by one, power first , then audio connection (test each separately)

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