Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar?

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maximumpower
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2015/12/28 07:24:37 (permalink)

Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar?

I have always been either, micing my amp or connecting to the amps' (or my attenuator's) line out, directly to my interface.
 
On the amp, the line out description says:
The LINE OUT 1/4” jack is for connecting to power amps or mixers. The LEVEL control adjusts the output to prevent overloading amp or mixer inputs. The CABINET VOICING switch will simulate the frequency response of a guitar cabinet, and prevent excessive bass or treble going to your mixer. This greatly aids in sound quality because you do not have to make extreme adjustments to your mixer EQ. The output level is more than adequate to drive any professional mixer or power amp.
 
I guess since it "works" without a DI box, I don't need one but will it sound "better" with one? I haven't used the cabinet voice option. I have been using cab/speaker IRs from within Sonar.
 
Thanks

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#1

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    jpetersen
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/28 07:57:12 (permalink)
    A DI box (for guitar->mixer) has a high-impedance (500k or higher) jack input for guitars, often a jack output to then continue to your pedals and amp, and on the other side there is an XLR microphone level output to go to your mixer/interface microphone input.
     
    If you use this type of DI box, you can play your guitar with your pedals running and your amp feeding back, but what you get on your recording is just your clean, direct guitar signal.
     
    This allows you to "re-amp" your guitar afterwards. So in other words, it could be that as your song develops, you decide a crunchy distortion would have been better than a metal distortion. If you recorded clean, you can do this.
     
    Amplifiers often have  line outs, as yours has. If your interface has a 1/4" jack input, then you do not need a DI box (unless you want to record the signal before any pedals you might have).
     
    Your output has a cabinet simulator, but it is not clear whether the output is pre-preamp or post-preamp (typical guitar preamps have 2 channels - clean and distorted). This will also come into the decision you have to make.
     
    Bottom line: If you have a jack in on your interface, no, you do not need a DI box.
    #2
    maximumpower
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/28 09:30:46 (permalink)
    Thank you!

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    #3
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/28 17:10:00 (permalink)
    What you have to be careful with is the input impedance of any 1/4" jack input. Not all jack inputs are designed to connect guitars direct to them at all unless they are labeled DI input.
     
    For example a jack input might have a 10K input impedance and that is not so suitable for connecting guitars direct to. What will happen is the signal will work OK but you might find the very top end of the guitar sound will disappear. The jack inputs on my Yamaha digital mixer for example are 3K input impedance which is way too low for a guitar. It works fine but the top end really gets shaved off.
     
    Check the specs of your interface and look up and see what any jack input impedances actually are. It will be in the specifications.
     
    A DI box usually offers quite a high input impedance to the guitar in order to preserve all the signal level and frequency response. It is actually a great way to record guitar because it not only presents the right impedance to the guitar but it also connects to the Mic XLR input usually where there is also much more gain available for guitars with passive pickups etc..
     
    A great way to record guitar also is to plug the guitar direct to the DI box first and record the clean dry signal from the XLR output. Use the jack output from the Di to feed pedals, effects and amps etc and also track that guitar from there. You might need two or more tracks to record the guitar part but having that super clean dry guitar signal available later on will come into its own once you start applying amp sims and processing etc over that dry sound.
     
     
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/12/28 17:27:46

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    #4
    TheMaartian
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/28 18:02:41 (permalink)
    +1 what Jeff said. On my interface, the Line Inputs (9-16) are 10K ohms. Line Ins 9 & 10 are switchable to Direct Instrument Input with <= 1M ohms input impedance. Here's how that changes the level specs (same gain for very different input level ranges):
     
    INST IN (IN 9-10) Connector 6.3mm (1/4") TS-jack (T:HOT, S:GND), UNBALANCED
    (When set to "INST" at LINE/INST switch)
    Input impedance 1M ohms or more
    Nominal input level
    GAIN: MAX -57dBV (0.0014Vrms)
    GAIN: MIN -12dBV (0.251Vrms)
    Maximum input level +8dBV (0.2512Vrms)
    Gain 45dB
     
    LINE IN (IN 9-10) Connector 6.3mm (1/4") TRS-jack (T:HOT, R:COLD, S:GND), BALANCED
    (When set to "LINE" at LINE/INST switch)
    Input impedance 10k ohms
    Nominal input level
    GAIN: MAX -41dBu (0.0069Vrms)
    GAIN: MIN +4dBu (1.228Vrms)
    Maximum input level +24dBu (12.182Vrms)
    Gain 45dB
     
    Edit: My bass amp (a v3 Fender Rumble 200) has a DI output, but the signal quality level is nothing like it would be from a Radial JDI Passive DI box with its Jensen transformer. I bought that amp for its flexibility. It has an effects loop in addition to the DI output, so pedals can be inserted post-DI, pre-amplifier and its on-board effects. I use a Sennheiser e 609 to mic the amp, so that gives me both dry/clean and wet signals. I can get better audio quality with discrete boxes, but what I have is WAY better than my current playing ability, so it's up to me to woodshed enough to justify the additional expense (that Radial box ain't cheap).
     
    Edit 2: FWIW: http://www.radialeng.com/jdi.php
    post edited by TheMaartian - 2015/12/28 18:26:17

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    #5
    maximumpower
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/28 18:13:59 (permalink)
    The specs of the Profire instrument input is:
     
    Inst. Inputs (Unbalanced) At Min Gain, No Pad
  • Frequency Response: +/- 0.2dB, 20Hz to 22kHz
  • Signal-to-Noise Ratio (min gain, no pad): 107dB (A-weighted)
  • Dynamic Range (min gain, no pad): 107dB (A-weighted)
  • THD+N (min gain, no pad): 0.0025% (-92dB), 1kHz, -1dBFS
  • Crosstalk: < -110dB @ 1kHz
  • Maximum Input level: from +14.5dBV @ min gain, no pad to -39dBV @ maxgain, no pad
  • Input Impedance: 1M Ohm unbalanced
  • Adjustable Gain: >53dB without padInput impedance is 1M Ohm. That is what I plug into when I use amp sims or when I have connected my amp's, or attenuator's, line out to.

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    #6
    Rimshot
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/28 19:49:38 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
     
    A great way to record guitar also is to plug the guitar direct to the DI box first and record the clean dry signal from the XLR output. Use the jack output from the Di to feed pedals, effects and amps etc and also track that guitar from there. You might need two or more tracks to record the guitar part but having that super clean dry guitar signal available later on will come into its own once you start applying amp sims and processing etc over that dry sound.

     
    +1
     

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    rsinger
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/29 14:25:10 (permalink)
    You should be fine with what you are doing - you don't need a DI. Line out to line in. You are using the amplifier's preamp to get to line level. What would be better? If you are using a microphone a mic preamp is a good choice, if you're using a guitar a guitar preamp is a good choice. I have a number of different ways to interface my guitar to my computer, but for using amp modelers or effects I prefer using a guitar preamp. I have a guitar amp with an effects loop and I can switch my interface in and out of the loop. I also have a separate guitar preamp I occasionally use. A guitar preamp is designed for guitars and has the feel and response that most guitarists like. Micing an amp is nice, but it's problematic in a home studio. My 2 cents. 

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/29 16:08:36 (permalink)
    Just remember that if you are passing your guitar through any pre-amps etc before recording that sound will always have the sound of that pre-amp included in the recording.
     
    I have found from experience that if you are going to start modifying that guitar sound with amp sims and processing etc the best result comes from having the total raw guitar sound direct from the guitar itself as pure as it can be and the only way to get that is from a DI connected direct to the guitar itself. Nothing between guitar and the track you are laying down.
     
    The trick is to use more than one track to track the guitar. One super clean track as above plus another that is either miked or recorded direct from a later stage in the preamps etc. Then you have got more options. I sometimes track guitars onto three tracks. One super clean, one half way along eg from some output along the way and the speaker miked up for good measure. Then you have all the options available to you.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2015/12/29 16:23:11

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    maximumpower
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/29 16:26:22 (permalink)
    Thank you for the good information! I don't have DI box (yet) but I have been looking at them on and off.
     
    I generally do not like amp sims but playing my real amp and then applying an amp sim later might do the trick. I don't mind the way amp sims sound afterward. I just don't like hearing them while I am playing.
     
    Do you have any DI recommendations as far as brands? Passive vs active?
     
    Thanks

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/29 16:35:49 (permalink)
    I prefer active DI's because usually they offer a much higher input impedance. I think just choose a quality unit.
     
    What I have done with guitar tracks sometimes is pan the pure sound left but with some decent amp sims etc on that sound and the miked guitar cab right. You can the get into some nice stereo imaging that way from just a single mono source.
     
    Or mix or blend the miked sound with the amp sim sound. There are some decent amp sims out the like SGear and also AcmeBargig Headcase. (Danny put me onto that one and it is killer)

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    tlw
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/29 17:47:41 (permalink)
    The main thing to check is that the DI box actually does habe an input impedance of 1MOhm or above. Also, connecting the guitar to the DI and the DI's 'direct output' to effects/amp often results in the guitar seeing the impedance of the DI box and the fx/amp as parallel resistances. This happens when the direct out on the DI is simply another jack socket wired directly to the input.

    The result would be the guitar seeing e.g. 1MOhm at the DI plus a parallel 1MOhm from the amp. Which Ohm's Law tells us means the guitar is now seeing a 500Ohm load, which is a bit lower than ideal.

    One way round this is to put a buffer with a 1MOhm+ input impedance between guitar and DI so the buffer is the first thing the guitar sees. Every Boss pedal (and quite a number of others) contains such a buffer, which is permanently active whether the pedal is on or off so long as it is receiving power. Most guitarists have at least one Boss pedal kicking around the place...

    The whole DI before effects thing does falls flat on its face if you use certain pedals, such as Fuzz Faces and similar transistor fuzzes or some wahs because the guitar and pedal form a single circuit and if the pedal doesn't see the right range of impedances 'upstream' at the guitar then the pedal circuit doesn't operate as designed. Putting such pedals after a buffer, or even another effect that isn't true bypass or is switched on, also means they don't work properly. Typically fuzzes become much brighter, more distorted and refuse to clean up properly as the guitar volume and tone controls are adjusted.

    The whole thing is a trial and error process. If you don't use the kind of pedals that are affected, don't worrry about it. Just run a buffer between guitar and DI.

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    #12
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/30 06:19:05 (permalink)
    It also depends a bit on how that link output is organised on the DI box. On many DI's that link output is in direct parallel to the input so in that case any pedals that come from the link out will in fact still see the guitar and its equivalent circuit and should be no different to running the guitar direct to the first pedal etc.. The buffer is actually built into the active DI and is the first thing the signal passes through before going onto the balanced XLR output circuit and provides total isolation to that which is what you want.  And if the input impedance of that internal buffer is very high eg 1M ohms etc it will have no effect on the guitar.  They are also best run on phantom power too.
     
    But if the link out though is coming from a separate internal buffer that is in fact distancing the guitar circuit from the link output and as tlw correctly points out it will effect how the pedals that may follow will react.
     
    One way to find out is to check the block diagram of the proposed DI you may be interested in. Some manufacturers actually provide the circuit diagram so it is easy to see.  I think in many cases the link output is just wired direct to the input socket eg in parallel.
     
    Watch out for passive DI's though with guitars. The transformers can only offer an input impedance in the area of 100K ohms or so and the primary of that transformer ends up in parallel with the guitar circuit and could easily alter things quite seriously as tlw suggests. The input impedance of a transformer is also dependent on the load to the secondary as well which makes things a bit more murky.

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    #13
    maximumpower
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/30 07:58:27 (permalink)
    I will look for an active DI but if I went passive, I could put it after my compressor. It has an input impedance of 1Meg Ohm and output of 2.2K Ohm. Or after my EQ; input 1M, output 510 Ohms.
     
    Thanks again for the great advice!

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    jpetersen
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/30 13:21:23 (permalink)
    The OP wants to connect the DI out from the amp to the mixer/interface.
     
    > On the amp, the line out description says:
    > The LINE OUT 1/4” jack is for connecting to power amps or mixers
     
    The DI out of the amp will have a low output impedance and will be fully compatible with the jack input of the m-audio Profire 610 interface. There will not be any losses in the high end.
     
    I further mentioned the advantages of using a DI box between the guitar and the amp.
    If the OP chooses to use a DI box, then the connection to the interface must be with an XLR-to-XLR cable, not a 1/4" jack.
     
    #15
    Rimshot
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    Re: Do I need a DI box for recording my guitar? 2015/12/30 13:47:46 (permalink)
    I called Live Wire about their passive direct box today and asked if the input signal and output signal on the front of their box is exactly the same and they said yes. 
    It seems someone was saying that the signal is degraded in some way but according to Live Wire, on their passive boxes, the signal coming out of the front is exactly what is going in. This output is not the XLR output on the box but the parallel out on the front.

    Rimshot 

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