How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants?

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jpetersen
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2016/01/03 11:24:07 (permalink)

How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants?

Whenever I work on MIDI (in the PRV), Sonar sometimes puts notes in one clip in the Track View. The rule seems to be two or more notes in a bar are put into a clip. Even single notes are forced into a single-note clip
 
Then, when I edit, move notes around etc., these clips start to get bigger, overlap each other - huge mess, and very confusing.
How can I stop this from happening?
 
As I work on a song, I want to decide for myself which notes go in a clip and which do not.
All these autonomously-created clips make it difficult to see what is going on.
I have found no option to stop this. I did not have this problem in Sonar 8.5.3
 
I also am having difficulties understanding the following:
 
In Sonar 8.5.3 I could draw and edit MIDI in the track as well as the PRV.
In Lexington I have found no way of editing in the track view.
Is this no longer possible?
Screen real-estate is already a problem in Sonar X1-3/Splat, I don't want to have the PRV taking up more space if I can help it.
 
In Sonar 8.5.3 there was a scrollbar on the right hand side of the track view grid, allowing me to move in to an area, say the bass, of a MIDI track so I can concentrate on what I am working on.
 
In Lexington this scrollbar is not there anymore. All that's left is "Fit Content", which, apart from not being what I want, does not seem to follow a logical pattern. It's doing something different every time.
 
How can I scroll the MIDI track vertically in the track view? (Note: I emphasize TRACK view, not the PRV).
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/03 11:43:30
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    azslow3
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/03 11:56:43 (permalink)
    jpetersen
    Whenever I work on MIDI (in the PRV), Sonar sometimes puts notes in one clip in the Track View. The rule seems to be two or more notes in a bar are put into a clip. Even single notes are forced into a single-note clip
     
    Then, when I edit, move notes around etc., these clips start to get bigger, overlap each other - huge mess, and very confusing.
    How can I stop this from happening?
     
    As I work on a song, I want to decide for myself which notes go in a clip and which do not.
    All these autonomously-created clips make it difficult to see what is going on.
    I have found no option to stop this. I did not have this problem in Sonar 8.5.3

    I think the logic is that any MIDI event (not only note) should be in some MIDI Clip. I also would like to know why Sonar creates new clips instead of extending existing clips. I either extend clips manually prior editing or Bounce several clips together  if unexpected splitting happens.
     

    I also am having difficulties understanding the following:
     
    In Sonar 8.5.3 I could draw and edit MIDI in the track as well as the PRV.
    In Lexington I have found no way of editing in the track view.
    Is this no longer possible?
    Screen real-estate is already a problem in Sonar X1-3/Splat, I don't want to have the PRV taking up more space if I can help it.

    Switch track from "Clips" to "Notes" mode to enable editing
     

    In Sonar 8.5.3 there was a scrollbar on the right hand side of the track view grid, allowing me to move in to an area, say the bass, of a MIDI track so I can concentrate on what I am working on.
     
    In Lexington this scrollbar is not there anymore. All that's left is "Fit Content", which, apart from not being what I want, does not seem to follow a logical pattern. It's doing something different every time.
     
    How can I scroll the MIDI track vertically in the track view? (Note: I emphasize TRACK view, not the PRV).

    With mouse over Piano Toll (in the Track View, on the left side of the content area), with Left button Zoom, with Right button scroll.



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    #2
    brundlefly
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/03 12:35:40 (permalink)
    If a note is added within one measure of the nearest clip boundary it will go into that clip, otherwise a new clip is created.

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    jpetersen
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/03 13:08:22 (permalink)
    azslow3
    jpetersen
    Whenever I work on MIDI ... I want to decide for myself which notes go in a clip and which do not.
    All these autonomously-created clips make it difficult ... I did not have this problem in Sonar 8.5.3

    I think the logic is that any MIDI event (not only note) should be in some MIDI Clip. I also would like to know why Sonar creates new clips instead of extending existing clips. I either extend clips manually prior editing or Bounce several clips together  if unexpected splitting happens.

    I would love to know from the bakers what the thinking was behind this.
    A programmer's solution, not a musician's solution.
    I'll post an (UN)Feature Request.
     
    azslow3
    jpetersen
    In Sonar 8.5.3 I could draw and edit MIDI in the track as well as the PRV.
    In Lexington I have found no way of editing in the track view.

    Switch track from "Clips" to "Notes" mode to enable editing

    Ah. Excellent! Thanks. - But the Clips are still there. H'm. Pity.
     
    azslow3
    jpetersen
    In Sonar 8.5.3 there was a scrollbar on the right hand side of the track view grid, allowing me to move in to an area, say the bass, of a MIDI track so I can concentrate on what I am working on.
     
    In Lexington this scrollbar is not there anymore. All that's left is "Fit Content", which, apart from not being what I want, does not seem to follow a logical pattern. It's doing something different every time.
     
    How can I scroll the MIDI track vertically in the track view? (Note: I emphasize TRACK view, not the PRV).

    With mouse over Piano Roll (in the Track View, on the left side of the content area), with Left button Zoom, with Right button scroll.

    Oh. Two different ways to do the same thing? Great!
    In the PRV it's Mousewheel, Shift+Mousewheel, Ctrl+Mousewheel and Alt+Mousewheel.
    Which doesn't always work very well, either.
    Another Feature Request.
     
    Thanks for the help, much appreciated.
    I will continue using 8.5.3 for now.
    post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/03 13:27:53
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    jpetersen
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/03 14:25:52 (permalink)
    Well, this is embarrassing.
    Closer examination shows that, with one minor exception, SPlat Lexington and Sonar 8.5.3 work the same.
     
    What is different is that, in X1-X3/SPlat, the fact that the notes are in a clip is prominently displayed in the bar above the Track Piano Roll.
     
    In 8.5.3, there is just a grey shading around the notes. If you (well, I) don't notice it, then the fact that there are clips all over the place doesn't worry one.
     
    The last time I worked with MIDI in 8.5.3 I probably wasn't using clips at all, just selecting groups of repeating notes and copying them throughout the song with Ctrl+Move.
     
    I have nevertheless posted a Feature Request, quoting brundlefly's elucidation.
    Perhaps the Bakers have a good reason for implementing this behavior?
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    Anderton
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/04 10:19:58 (permalink)
    jpetersen
    I have nevertheless posted a Feature Request, quoting brundlefly's elucidation.
    Perhaps the Bakers have a good reason for implementing this behavior?



    It's handy if you're working on one section of a song, then want to work on another section and be able to copy/paste those sections without having to split clips.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    jpetersen
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/04 20:02:39 (permalink)
    Sure, but I'd really prefer to define the clips myself, not have Sonar decide what is and what is not a clip.
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    Anderton
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/04 22:55:44 (permalink)
    jpetersen
    Sure, but I'd really prefer to define the clips myself, not have Sonar decide what is and what is not a clip.



    Not quite sure what workflow you would want to see implemened, but I tend to think that the occasional bounce-to-clip to combine different sections to define the clip you want would be a simpler clickstream than making decisions whenever you add MIDI data.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    jpetersen
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    Re: How to make MIDI clips when I want, not when Sonar wants? 2016/01/05 13:21:29 (permalink)
    Craig, I apologize in advance, but it's really, really not just a question of bouncing down the odd isolated set of notes.
    For one thing, I'd need to pay close attention else I might accidentally include clips I have already created.
     
    Please bear with me, I'll do my best to be brief whilst still giving a clear explanation ONE of the problems I face.
     
    Right now at this very moment I am looking at a verse which ends in measure 8.
    The chorus (measure 9) starts with an anticipatory note that BEGINS in measure 8 and continues on into measure 9 so that the last note of the verse and the first note of the chorus overlap some in measure 8.
    When I drew the notes, Sonar put them together so verse and chorus are all one clip.
     
    Now I need to split the verse and chorus into separate clips.
     
    If I split the clip at the START of the ANTICIPATORY note (Alt+click, scissor icon), the end of the last note of the verse is shortened to that point. If I then extend the verse clip, that note remains cut short. I have to fix the note, too.
     
    If I split the clip at the END of the LAST NOTE OF THE VERSE, the anticipatory note of the chorus is cut short at that point and furthermore, is now part of the verse clip, not the chorus clip.
     
    I record pop/rock/blues and use MIDI to augment tracks recorded live. Sonar's auto-clip algorithm cannot possibly guess what was played and it just costs time undoing what it did, confuses the material I have on the screen and just generally gets in the way.
     
    I'd prefer an option to disable the need for clips entirely, even on single notes. Just allow drawn notes to be free.
    Give the user a chance to rough the song out first, because only then does it become clear what could usefully be grouped into clips. Probably the chorus would emerge first. Then the user continues on to the details. At some point a bridge may be clipped. Verses might never be put in a clip because they all differ some, so don't bother.
     
    If verses all are automatically made into clips because Sonar says everything MUST be a clip, I get confused when I come back later to the song and notice something in the verse clips is different. Did I forget something? Must fix it! ... and then later ... dang. They were SUPPOSED to be slightly different. - Semantically so much clearer if verse notes were not in a clip at all.
     
    I envisage the user lassoing a region, Ctrl+Select or Unselect the odd stray note, then a function for "put these notes in a clip".
     
    It really would make composition so much less frustrating.
     
    I hope my explanation was understandable.
     
     
    post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/05 14:28:59
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