Helpful ReplyCWBRN-40015 - Bad Transient Detection in Sonar Platinum

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Lord Tim
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/01/31 23:41:11 (permalink)
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I just replied to another thread with my workflow and what I'm doing about the bad detection: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3362631
 
After gating, this problem pretty much goes away entirely. It's an extra step but it can save HOURS of work moving stuff around...!

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Aksuaho
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 02:17:06 (permalink)
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Lord Tim
After gating, this problem pretty much goes away entirely. It's an extra step but it can save HOURS of work moving stuff around...!

Actually it only helps with early and ghost detected markers. I recorded the metronome and activated Audio Snap. Still late and wrong markers.


#32
Lord Tim
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 02:20:49 (permalink)
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How tight are you setting this gate? If you get just the initial pop, 99% of the problems clear up for me right away. That's all you need for a detection, and then you can copy the transients to your actual track and delete the gated guide.

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Aksuaho
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 02:31:15 (permalink)
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Like I said, even with a generic pulse waveform like the internal metronome you get the late markers.

#34
Lord Tim
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 07:31:56 (permalink)
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I just tried a couple of tests then.
 
With Ping Hi / Ping Low (which is default) it was pretty solid. There were a few samples lead in before the transient detected but I think that's more so the sample for that sound had some leading crap before it hit properly (there was a thread on this recently where the metronome sounds were tidied up by someone and I'd say that would go away entirely if there wasn't that quiet part before the main hit).
 
With Square Click, I'm seeing it 100% definitely on the start of each pulse. Oddly enough, it missed one of them and no matter where I set the threshold, it just wouldn't detect. When it did detect it was absolutely correct though.
 
Running Woodblock Hi, I had 100% consistent and accurate results every time.
 
At no point was I seeing anything like your clip with any of them, however.
 
I'm certainly not saying you're not getting these results of course! But it's odd that we're getting different results.
 
How is your detection when you try to detect using the Woodblock Hi sound? That seemed to be  the most accurate for me.
 
 

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gbowling
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 08:09:45 (permalink)
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I'm with the poster who mentioned melodyne. I find I use it more and more for drum timing issues. I'm considering getting the full studio version of melodyne 4 for doing my multitrack drum edits.
 
It seems to me the idea of identifying and working with "blobs" is a better idea than transients. A drum hit is really more of a blob than a transient as a hit is bigger than a single transient. Although the transients should identify the beginning of the blobs, hence the start of the hit.
 
The two really go together, seems like identifying the blob would be easier, once you find the blob you can go to the beginning of it to find the first transient. This two step identification of transients might be something a baker would read and trigger an idea of how to do it better in sonar.
 
gabo

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#36
Lord Tim
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 08:13:37 (permalink)
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Melodyne is pretty awesome, I agree!
 
Do you use it for multitracked drums currently? If so, how are you maintaining the phase relationships between each track? I'd love to try it out as an alternative to Audiosnap if that's possible. 
 
EDIT: Re-reading your post suggests you're not using it for multitracked stuff currently. So you're just using it on single tracks to move around a late kick or something, yeah?
post edited by Lord Tim - 2016/02/05 08:28:21

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gbowling
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 08:31:05 (permalink)
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Yea just using it on single tracks, although if all of them are aligned to the grid you can do them one at a time and do ok. 
 
I've found with my drums that I can use transients first on the multitrack parts and only align things on the 2 and 4 beats and on the 1 beats at the end of runs/transistions, aligning those to the grid. This brings everything pretty much in time with a few anomalies here and there.
 
Then I bring in each track to melodyne and use it to fine tune the alignments. Since everything is really close from the work described above, it tends to line things up well across the tracks so they match. With melodyne you can work on sections of the tracks so it's easier. I wish you could do that with audiosnap.
 
gabo

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Aksuaho
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 09:38:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ronyerby 2017/01/22 14:37:48
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Lord Tim
How is your detection when you try to detect using the Woodblock Hi sound? That seemed to be  the most accurate for me.



With Cowbell and Woodblock it was surprisingly perfect, but with the default ping it was like in the screenshot, every time different and most of the times late.
But I still think this needs to get a big overhaul, all this workarounds I have to do without any guarantee of success is a lot of time my customers won`t pay ;) Unfortenutaly - for the time being - I have to switch between two programs.
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brundlefly
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/02/05 13:47:02 (permalink)
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Sounds with a higher frequency and fast attack (like most metronome samples) are less likely to exhibit late transient detection because the peak amplitude occurs almost immediately. The late transient markers are more common on Kick drums, Bass guitar and other low-freq and/or slower attack sounds.
 
I suspect the reason the Bakers have not responded is that the change in behavior of the detection algorithm was deliberate to reduce the number of false positives and early placements which it definitely has done compared to the old algorithm.
 
The question is which issue is more troublesome. As i said before, I generally found it easier to clean up the relatively few mistakes made by the old algorithm than to try to fix all the late markers produced by the new one, and if your goal is to split at transients or quantize audio, late markers are more problematic than early ones. Early marker placement can usually be addressed by gating the material first, but late markers cause clicks, distortion and doubled attacks when splitting/stretching, and there's no pre-processing you can do to avoid it.

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foodcoma
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Re: CWBRN-45153 Reissued Transient Detection 2016/03/06 23:57:12 (permalink)
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Have there been any updates on this in the last month?  I can't believe this problem has existed for more than a year now with no fix.  Even if they just reverted back to Sonar x3e transient detection and that was the end of it, I would be eternally grateful.  I'll submit a bug report too for good measure.
#41
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