New USB mixer

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jkoseattle
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2016/02/04 10:27:39 (permalink)

New USB mixer

I just bought a USB mixer. Not because it was USB, but because my other one was flaky. I was told about this USB feature at the store, and don't know how to get Sonar to see it. I've plugged the cable in, and Windows used that ASIO4ALL driver, but when I started Sonar, I expected it to detect a new input, and when it didn't, I then expected a new input option to be available for a track, but I don't see anything. I poked around the Properties window, but am at a loss. Also rebooted the PC to see if that would help.
 
Like I said, I didn't buy this because it was USB, and am currently fine using my regular M-Audio sound card, but I was told the USB connection might reduce noise, plus I'm just curious if I can use it.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 12:10:13 (permalink)
    It would sure be usefull if you told us what the brand and model was??
    My band just bought a Yamaha MG XU 16 mixer with USB ( stereo) connectivity. It comes with a Steinberg ASIO driver. 
    I didn't buy it for recording but it actually seems to be as good as any basic audio interface and I would think it's more or less equal to the Steinberg UR22. 
    Best is it works side by side with my Tascam us1641 in WDM mode. 
    I'm recording my band live into Sonar and on breaks I playback tunes on Media Player. 
    While media player is running I have kept Sonar open and save the set I just recorded and open a new project ready for the next set. So no issues with drivers at all. 
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2016/02/04 12:25:59

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    #2
    bvideo
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 12:53:39 (permalink)
    Possibly your installation of ASIO4ALL is masking the ASIO driver of the new unit. What model is your new unit?
     
    Meanwhile, if you already have another device configured to use ASIO4ALL, you may need to go into the config dialog of ASIO4ALL to choose your new device. Sonar won't see that choice.

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    BobF
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 13:22:01 (permalink)
    I have a cheapo Behringer 1204USB that actually works pretty good as an interface, except for the stereo only USB side.  Oh, and the overhead in the pres isn't very good either.
     
    Still, for recording a track or two at a time it isn't bad at all.

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    #4
    jkoseattle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 13:35:29 (permalink)
    Sorry everyone, duhh... It's a Behringer Xenyx Q802
    (who comes up with these names?)

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    Beagle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 14:00:49 (permalink)
    if you have the M-audio Delta installed and are running ASIO driver mode then you can't use the Behringer USB mixer also as a direct input to sonar because ASIO only allows the use of ONE device at a time.  and you wouldn't want to use the delta and the behringer at the same time anyway because they have 2 different clocks and your recordings would have timing/drift problems.
     
    also, you shouldn't use ASIO4ALL if you're using the Delta anyway - use the native M-audio ASIO drivers instead.  ASIO4ALL is probably needed for the berhinger USB, but as I said, you can't run both at the same time anyway.
     
    if you installed ASIO4ALL because that's what Berhinger said to do for the USB mixer, then you need to make a choice of whether you want to run the delta or the behringer.  if you want to run the behringer, you'll need to disable the delta in your windows hardware settings.  then the usb mixer would work under ASIO4ALL (which I believe that's what berhinger usually says to use for their USB mixers).
     
    post edited by Beagle - 2016/02/04 14:17:37

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    #6
    jkoseattle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 16:37:44 (permalink)
    I don't really care which one I use. I only need one stereo input anyway. I really just wanted to try out the USB to see if it was better or easier or anything. 
     
    I tried plugging in the USB and Sonar popped up a message saying there was a new input and asking me if I should install it. I said Yes, but in my track inputs and the Properties page, things look the same. The Windows hardware page indicates a new input, namely USB Audio CODEC, which I set as the default. But nothing in Sonar says anything about USB. The only inputs still say M-Audio Delta ASIO etc.
     
    I was just about to unplug the RCA from the M-Audio card to see if it is maybe recording into USB anyway, but I realized there's another complication I'm confused about:
     
    As mentioned, my sound card only has the single stereo in, which is really fine for my needs. However, it means I need to use the Effects send to record anything to the computer while still hearing everything else. So my mixer's effects send goes to the PC input on the sound card. (The sound card's output goes to the tape in on the mixer for monitor purposes.) When I want to record a vocal, or bounce down a Midi track, I just bring up the effect volume knob for that channel and make sure everything else is 0. Works fine. (If I need to record a stereo Midi track, or my digital piano, I repatch a bit to record the stereo, since the FX send is mono).  So if I switch to the USB, don't I lose the ability to record into the PC on one channel and simultaneously monitor the others? 
     

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    tlw
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 19:37:02 (permalink)
    Which M-Audio Delta are you using? I used to have a Delta 44 PCI card interface that gave low enough round-trip latency for me to monitor the inputs using Sonar's audio track echo function. So unless I needed to record more than four inputs at a time there was no need to set up any hardware monitoring other than connecting two of the Delta outputs to the nearfields.

    As for Sonar and the Behringer, have you tried selecting something other than ASIO in Sonar's driver preferences? You might find it shows up then. Looks like for ASIO using it you're stuck with ASIO4ALL which can be tempremental to put it mildly. It might be worth trying the WDM driver if Windows makes one available for it, I think the mixer's supposed to be class-compliant in Windows (and Core Audio compliant on Macs).

    As for "Xenyx", I'm quite sure the name has nothing whatsoever to do with Mackie's released-earlier mid-range mixers being called "Onyx". All purely a coincidence.

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    kitekrazy1
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 19:45:06 (permalink)
    jkoseattle
    Sorry everyone, duhh... It's a Behringer Xenyx Q802
    (who comes up with these names?)




    Take it back and get the 802 without USB. 

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    BobF
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 20:01:02 (permalink)
    Looks like Behringer has stopped providing their own drivers.  I got real drivers with my 1204USB.  The readme says the drivers support a bunch of different hardware.
     
    If you want to try these drivers, PM me and I'll put them up somewhere for you to download.
     
    Some people have great luck with ASIO4ALL, others don't.  I'm in the don't group.  ASIO4ALL isn't a real ASIO driver.  It's layer on top of WDM to make it look like an ASIO device.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 20:25:55 (permalink)
    There's no need for asio4all if you audio interfaces already have proper asio drivers. And as I said you can use 2 devices if you swicth to WDM mode , this is really what asio4all is doing anyway. ,
    Asio4all can cause many issues once installed and it's not that simple to 100% remove it. 
     

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    #11
    cclarry
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/04 21:16:21 (permalink)
    Your always best using the Devices ASIO rather then ASIO4ALL...

    And if you must use ASIO4ALL make sure it is configured properly,
    as has been stated.

    Our Band uses a Mackie ProFX22 USB 4 Channel Mixer...works fine...


    #12
    BobF
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/05 09:47:54 (permalink)
    Guys - Behringer has started providing ASIO4ALL instead of proper drivers ...

    Bob  --
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    jkoseattle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/05 10:45:33 (permalink)
    Thanks for the help, everyone.
     
    I tried the suggestion of changing the driver mode, and that did indeed cause Sonar to see the USB I/O. The USB connection caused a persistent whine, however, which is something I noticed when messing with it in the Windows Control Panel as well. I don't know what that's about. Thanks also for the info about ASIO, I don't know anything about these driver modes. I switched to WDM based on recommendations here.
     
    So playing back an existing project using USB out, lots of stuttering (and that persistent whine). Also in a recording test, there were lots of pops and dropouts (which were reflected in the waveform, so they were during input). I unplugged the USB cable, the whine disappeared. I switched my I/O to the regular M-Audio (which is in fact Delta Audiophile), and left the mode on WDM. All seems to be happy now. Plus, my input drivers now list as "Delta AP 1/2) and "Delta AP Monitor" etc, where it used to be something else longer. My foggy guess is that switching to WDM is making the card use different drivers which have different names, yeah?
     
    While I'm learning here, what's the difference between the 1/2, monitor, multi 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 and SPDIF? As mentioned, my card only has a single RCA stereo in and a single stereo out, so I don't understand why there would be 3/4 and 5/6. Maybe those just come because the drivers have them, but my actual card doesn't support them? So then what's Monitor and SPDIF?

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    Beagle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/05 11:01:10 (permalink)
    in ASIO 
     
    LEFT INPUT 1/2
    RIGHT INPUT 1/2
    STEREO INPUT 1/2
     
    that's the nomenclature it uses.
     
    again, tho, as I said above; the delta and the berhinger will have TWO DIFFERENT CLOCKS.  if you try to use them in the same project, regardless of using WDM driver mode or not, you WILL have timing drift between the tracks.
    post edited by Beagle - 2016/02/05 11:15:22

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    jkoseattle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/05 15:42:15 (permalink)
    Sorry to be obtuse, but what do you mean by "use"? I am using the behringer as my mixer, and its effect send is going into the sound card. the sound card's out is going to the tape in on the behringer, for monitor purposes. I am not using the USB at all now.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/05 22:53:11 (permalink)
    You should still use ASIO mode whenever it is available. I only mentioned WDM mode if you were going to try and use both interfaces to record. ASIO only allows one device. WDM mode is more forgiving but does come with pitfalls. 
    In loopback testing I found WDM mode was out of sync. So I don't recommend it for overdubing at all. It will work fine for the live recording because syncing tracks is not involved unless you are using 2 devices. 
      
    As that's a good point about the 2 devices possibly not syncing. I have yet to use my Yamaha for a full recording in tandem with my us1641.  I just set them both up and tested a short piece in Sonar to see if it would work. Both the Tascams  inputs and the Yamaha ( marked as Steinberg ) show on the inputs list in Sonar. I'm foggy but I do seem to remember the Tascams SPDIF do not show in WDM mode.... 
     
    I leave everything in ASIO mode and it seems to not cause any issues with Sonar running and the Yamaha playing back music from Windows. Note I am staying in 44.1/ 16 which might make a difference. 
     
    I have recorded straight stereo from the Yamaha mixer to Wave Lab and Sound Forge and that is fine too. I get no hums or issues. But somehow it doesn't suprise me that a Berhinger would hum. It really sucks that they are not taking the trouble to supply drivers. The USB connection is therefore pointless. Take it back and buy a Yamaha, Mackie or A&H. 
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2016/02/05 23:17:51

    Johnny V  
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    #17
    jkoseattle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/06 12:32:12 (permalink)
    I didn't buy the behringer for the USB functionality precisely, just needed a new mixer and since it had USB I thought I'd try it. I paid $80 for it. Is there a reason to go with another mixer besides behringer if the USB is not an issue? When you say "pitfalls" using WDM, what are those exactly? 
     
    Keep in mind, I'm a "prosumer" who takes his work seriously, and has real releases on a real record label, but I doubt I'll need to provide music for games or films or anyone paying me big bucks for it (at least not if I can help it).

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    Settings: 16-Bit, Sample Rate 44.1k, ASIO Buffer Size 128-1024, Record/Playback I/O Buffers play:256k, rec: 64k, Total Round Trip Latency 48 ms  
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    #18
    Beagle
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/07 08:31:35 (permalink)
    jkoseattle
    Sorry to be obtuse, but what do you mean by "use"? I am using the behringer as my mixer, and its effect send is going into the sound card. the sound card's out is going to the tape in on the behringer, for monitor purposes. I am not using the USB at all now.


    If you are not using the USB part of the mixer then it won't be a problem.  the clock timing issues will occur only when you're trying to use two soundcards.  the USB device for the mixer and the delta both are soundcards.

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    JonD
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    Re: New USB mixer 2016/02/07 10:35:33 (permalink)
    kitekrazy1
     
    Take it back and get the 802 without USB.



    +1
    Since you already have an interface then yeah, you don't need a USB mixer.  A standard analog mixer with the usual I/O will do the job just fine.

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