New Q

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eph221
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2016/02/06 22:01:05 (permalink)

New Q

Why is it that when I place audio effects on recorded audio tracks (real world) versus digital to audio tracks, why does it use so much cpu?  Is there a way to remediate after the fact and/or mitigate during recording?  I''d say my cpu usage is cut in half when I take the audio effects off of those tracks.(??)
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 04:55:30 (permalink)
    I don't understand what you mean with "digital to audio tracks" but any effect you place in an FX bin, ProChannel FX chain or on a clip has to be calculated in real time by your CPU. By definition that will take up CPU cycles. Various things influence how much;
    1. How CPU intensive the plugin is (e.g. generally reverbs use more CPU than EQ and more recent plugins tend to be heavier than older ones). You could try substituting lighter plugs. 
    2. How fast/recent your CPU is, not much you can do about this without getting a new computer.
    3. The samplerate you're working at (higher samplerate=>more CPU), you could go down to 44.1KHz if you're at something higher. 
    4. The buffer size/latency settings for your soundcard. With a good soundcard with proper ASIO drivers you can get buffer sizes as small as 64 samples or even 32 samples. This allows for incredibly low latency which is nice if you want to play aoftware synths or monitor through your DAW. But it also puts a lot more strain on your CPU than a higher buffer size. If you're in the mixing stage, you could try setting a buffer size of 512 or even 1024 samples. This means the computer will be slower to respond to real time input but during the mixing phase this is less of an issue and it will allow your computer to "look ahead" a bit more and spread out the needed CPU processing, leading to lower strain.
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    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 07:56:55 (permalink)
    eph221
    Why is it that when I place audio effects on recorded audio tracks (real world) versus digital to audio tracks, why does it use so much cpu?  Is there a way to remediate after the fact and/or mitigate during recording?  I''d say my cpu usage is cut in half when I take the audio effects off of those tracks.(??)


    I have no idea what you are saying. What is real world? 

    Best
    John
    #3
    bvideo
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 08:46:00 (permalink)
    One way to remediate after the fact is to freeze those tracks as soon as you're done tweaking the recording and the effect settings.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 09:25:34 (permalink)
    Some idea of the OP's system would be a good idea, 'cos we don't have a clue what he's running nor what on!

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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 11:50:40 (permalink)
    Haha nm.
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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 11:54:39 (permalink)
    Thanks bvideo, that's what I was looking 4.  But does freezing an audio track (one that you've recorded from a real instrument) really free up resources?  what does feezing actually do?!  I mean I kind of understand that the computer would then be working with an audio wave file instead of a midi file(?) but isn't that what the sequencer is using when you record a real instrument.  I think I may have some misconceptions that need clearing up.
     
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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 11:58:04 (permalink)
    If I put the exact same effect on the fx bin of an audio track and a midi instrument track...the audio track tacks up vastly more cpu cycles.  That's what puzzles me.  (This is how my original question should have been framed, I apologize)
     
     
    post edited by eph221 - 2016/02/07 12:18:11
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    brundlefly
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 12:17:35 (permalink)
    The FX plugin itself should use the same amount of CPU in either case, but the virtual instrument also uses CPU - probably more than the FX - so you would need to get a baseline with the instrument by itself before adding the FX. what instruments and FX are you referring to specifically, and does it matter whether the track is mono or stereo?
     
     
    post edited by brundlefly - 2016/02/07 12:31:22

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    #9
    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 12:34:09 (permalink)
    I realize it's counterintuitive, that's why I'm asking.   The audio track is usually mono, and the midi instrument tracks are usually stereo.  The midi instrument tracks use vastly less cpu cycles.  Same effect in both fx bins.  Maybe it has something to do with how they're routed through the master bus.  
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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 12:41:12 (permalink)
    Oh I see where the confusion was, by *real instrument* I meant non-digital, which is clearly chauvinistic.
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    bvideo
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 12:56:46 (permalink)
    eph221
    Thanks bvideo, that's what I was looking 4.  But does freezing an audio track (one that you've recorded from a real instrument) really free up resources?  what does feezing actually do?!  I mean I kind of understand that the computer would then be working with an audio wave file instead of a midi file(?) but isn't that what the sequencer is using when you record a real instrument.  I think I may have some misconceptions that need clearing up.
     


    Freezing is for freeing up CPU resources:
    • In the case of an audio track with effects, a new audio file is created that has the effects applied. Now the DAW can just play the new audio file and no longer needs to use the CPU for those effects.
    • In the case of an instrument track, an audio file is created by running the MIDI through the synth, with all effects applied. Again, the DAW now just plays the new audio file and no longer runs the synth or the effects through the CPU.
    When you want to tweak a track that is frozen, unfreeze it first.

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    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 13:10:14 (permalink)
    eph221
    Oh I see where the confusion was, by *real instrument* I meant non-digital, which is clearly chauvinistic.


    From a computer's view everything is digital. An audio track holds digital data. Where it came from is not important. The MIDI track is also holding digital data. A computer can only work with, guess what, digital data.
     
    Lets see here, you have a simple instrument track and another audio track when you insert an FX into the FX bin of the simple instrument track you get excessive CPU usage. Where inserting the same FX into the FX bin of an audio track doesn't cause excessive CPU usage. Do I have this correct?
     
    One question are you sure that FX bin on the simple instrument track is for audio FX and not MIDI FX?

    Best
    John
    #13
    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 14:25:21 (permalink)
    Yes it is audio fx not midi fx.  I understand the distinction, I think being a plebian from generation x means that I  look at the analogue and digital worlds a little differently.  A lot of the confusion comes from what sonar calls *midi instrument tracks* which are hybrid versus the straight up * midi tracks*. Anyways,  bvideo  thanks for the tip on freezing tracks that makes perfect sense, I'll just do that instead of trying to sleuth out the reason.
    #14
    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 14:59:10 (permalink)
    Well if it works. What is concerning me is you may have found a bug. An FX placed on a instrument track vs an audio track should be the same to the CPU. None the less it is disturbing if you can reproduce it.
     
      

    Best
    John
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    Paul P
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 15:37:36 (permalink)
     
    In the interests of minimizing confusion, a combined midi and audio track is a "Simple Instrument Track". 
     
    It's simple because it occupies only one track visually, but in fact incorporates one midi and one audio track.  Exactly as if you set up one midi and one audio track separately for a soft synth.  In fact, you can easily convert back and forth between (1 midi + 1 audio) and 1 "Simple Instrument Track".
     
    Normally, the Simple Instrument Track displays the midi track, but if you freeze the synth (converting the midi to audio) then the audio track is displayed, until you unfreeze.  I'm find them handy, others don't.
     
     
    post edited by Paul P - 2016/02/07 15:52:08

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 17:24:56 (permalink)
    I might actually start using them again.
     
    I know when they were first developed (X1?) they were an absolute nightmare on my machine.
    I remember splitting one down to Audio + Midi and deleting the Midi track.
    What happened was, the rest of the tracks did not renumber themselves and Sonar left a "Placeholder" where the deleted track used to be.
    This would happen across multiple synths & tracks

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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 17:25:13 (permalink)
    Thank you paul so what I was calling a *midi instrument track* in sonar parlance is a *simple instrument track*.  That's the hybrid thing, right? what's the regular instrument track that just records a wave form called?
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    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 17:57:02 (permalink)
    No such thing. There are MIDI tracks Audio tracks and Simple Instrument tracks plus Auxiliary tracks.
    eph221
    Thank you paul so what I was calling a *midi instrument track* in sonar parlance is a *simple instrument track*.  That's the hybrid thing, right? what's the regular instrument track that just records a wave form called?



     

    Best
    John
    #19
    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 18:00:41 (permalink)
    I can see we're having problems with the LINGO!
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    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 18:29:09 (permalink)
    We are not. You are. I don't mean to be harsh but there are terms that have meaning for Sonar. Knowing the language of Sonar is important in understanding it. For communication its vital. One can't make up terms and expect others to have any idea what one is saying. Sometimes a new member will use terms they know from another DAW. Normally they will explain that. Many of us have many DAWs and know them and can "translate".
     
    Reading the manual will greatly help in learning the language of Sonar. They even provide a glossary.
     
    Once we are speaking the same language it will become easy to deal with any issue that may pop up. Also it helps in figuring out the philosophy behind Sonar. That in turn will expedite knowing why things are done the way they are.  
     
    I welcome you to this forum and hope you see this place as I do. A massive resource full of deeply knowledgeable members willing to help a fellow user. However it helps if everyone is speaking the same language. A mild misnaming is no big deal. But things can get badly mangled if no one can understand the meaning of what is said.
     
    I believe members have pretty much answered your "q". I am being a bit more exacting as to what is really meant by you because I think its important enough so that its completely clear. Otherwise all the trouble the others have gone to will have proved fruitless.  
     
     

    Best
    John
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    brundlefly
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 18:30:18 (permalink)
    There are also "Synth" tracks which are audio tracks that have a soft synth assigned as input (i.e. the audio half of an "Instrument" track that's been split). They get a different icon, have a Waveform Preview button in place of an Input Echo button.
     
    I'd still like to have an example of an FX that uses more CPU on an audio track than on a synth/instrument track. I definitely cannot reproduce that.

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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 18:34:44 (permalink)
    This thread is badly mangled I'm afraid.   To summarize  I HAVE learned what to do..freeze AUDIO TRACKS WITH EFFECTS ON THEM to conserve cpu resources (as well as on simple instrument tracks as defined by Paul P which is correct).  As far as tracks that create wave FORMS and REAL INSTRUMENTS...we'll let those two go because they're way too ambiguous.  I didn't say wave FILE however.  Thanks for your efforts John please don't take offense. :)
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    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 18:34:46 (permalink)
    Yes, that bothers me too, Brundlefly.  

    Best
    John
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    John
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 18:39:40 (permalink)
    eph221
    This thread is badly mangled I'm afraid.   To summarize  I HAVE learned what to do..freeze AUDIO TRACKS WITH EFFECTS ON THEM to conserve cpu resources (as well as on simple instrument tracks as defined by Paul P which is correct).  As far as tracks that create wave FORMS and REAL INSTRUMENTS...we'll let those two go because they're way too ambiguous.  I didn't say wave FILE however.  Thanks for your efforts John please don't take offense. :)


    No I wont take any offense because none was offered. Even so if there had been I wouldn't because you are trying. I give you credit for that. In fact I think you are a very nice new member. I hope to hear more from you. 
     
    I do know Sonar is a very deep DAW.  No one can learn it overnight. You have done nothing wrong. 

    Best
    John
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    tenfoot
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 21:51:05 (permalink)
    I can't seem to reproduce this either eph221.  Now that you have your track types sorted,  are you certain you are not mistaking the additional overhead of the synth inserted in a simple instrument track for CPU load caused by the fx plugin? 

    Bruce.
     
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    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 23:18:33 (permalink)
    Bruce,  I read on another thread that someone's core 1 is maxing out.  Generally speaking that's what's happening to me.  I'll have about 8 tracks with fx  and sonar is just unusable.   My core 1 is spiking as well and I have 4 cores.  I have my buffers as large as they go on my tascam 2x2.  I did latency mon, and it appears I'm have overall issues with my firewire adapter.  Who knows.  It's going to take some sleuthing.  The original post though  of this thread is  true of old projects.  I'll see what happens when I record some new projects and let you know.  What's strange is that these are new issues for me,something I did recently is what's causing the issues.  But funny thing, the only thing I did recently was reset my computer!
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    tenfoot
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/07 23:31:27 (permalink)
    eph221
    Bruce,  I read on another thread that someone's core 1 is maxing out.  Generally speaking that's what's happening to me.  I'll have about 8 tracks with fx  and sonar is just unusable.   My core 1 is spiking as well and I have 4 cores.  I have my buffers as large as they go on my tascam 2x2.  I did latency mon, and it appears I'm have overall issues with my firewire adapter.  Who knows.  It's going to take some sleuthing.  The original post though  of this thread is  true of old projects.  I'll see what happens when I record some new projects and let you know.  What's strange is that these are new issues for me,something I did recently is what's causing the issues.  But funny thing, the only thing I did recently was reset my computer!


    The first core spiking has been mentioned in quite a few threads,  but a different issue to your OP.  I was referring to the variation in CPU load between fx loaded onto different types of track. Always confusing when there are a few issues in a single thread!  
     
    With regards the first core CPU spike,  try disabling core parking.  I am running Windows 7 and it certainly solved that issue for me - though others not so much, so your mileage may vary. 
     
    https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol/

    Bruce.
     
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    #28
    eph221
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    Re: New Q 2016/02/08 00:14:03 (permalink)
    Thanks everyone, mystery solved.  I went into  my bios  on a lark and set it to *optimized defaults*.  Latency mon is now as pacific as a baby kitten.  (Well, cured but not solved!)  The core one spiking, the dpc latency issues and the fx problems on *real instrument* tracks are all taken care of now.
    #29
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