jpetersen
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Stop putting notes/events in clips automatically (needing manual fixing) Let user decide
Big Edit for simplicity: Here's what I am proposing, as briefly as possible: 1) Allow notes to be placed manually (or played in) without any clips being automatically generated. 2) Once that is done, let the user decide which notes/events to group together in clips. **** Now follows my motivation and details how this can work: Whenever I work on MIDI, Sonar automatically puts notes in existing clips. If a note is not near a clip, it makes a new single-note clip. According to forum member brundlefly, >> If a note is added within one measure of the nearest clip boundary it will go into that clip, otherwise a new clip is created. Sonar cannot possibly know how the user wants to group notes. It cannot know the difference between verse and chorus. So the user inevitably has to undo what Sonar has done. And not every note/event needs a clip. Notes in an intro will probably NEVER move and don't need a clip. A patch change at bar 21 needs no clip. Allowing clipless notes/events will make the clip view less cluttered and clearer to use. Let the user decide which notes/events to put in clips. One way might be to let the user lasso a selection of notes and to provide a new Rightclick menu function "Group notes in a Clip" (with a corollary "Release notes from Clip"). *** Specific real-world example: If a verse is followed by a chorus and the chorus has lead-in notes that start inside and overlap the ends of the verse notes (like the song "Blueberry Hill"), unpicking the single automatic clip into a verse clip and chorus clip is quite some work. Just let the user lasso/select the notes manually. Its quicker in the end. And not only that, after intensive editing where I add some notes, move notes around, etc, the clips get bigger. They overlap each other, they reveal notes I'd previously thought I'd cropped away... big mess. Clips should make the user's life easier. They should be made more convenient. Clip membership should be optional.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/14 18:20:28
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/03 14:27:40
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@Adji and Brundlefly: Often folks suggest what you propose: select everything, bounce to one big clip, then snip the result into little clips. This only works the first time. If you later come back to do editing, adding bits, replay a bar or two, you again end up with Sonar's automated clips. Selecting everything and bouncing again will destroy previous work.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/14 18:17:14
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Adji
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/04 10:58:32
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I agree with this. I;ve looked all over to try and 'turn this feature off' and for people using a large amount of MIDI that we are drawing in manually it can be really frustrating trying to manually fix this. I would much prefer that it was all loaded into one big clip that I can then manually chop up myself if required.
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brundlefly
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/04 17:45:26
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Adji
I would much prefer that it was all loaded into one big clip that I can then manually chop up myself if required.
It wasn't clear to me that this is what the OP wants, but I would support this. One of the very first posts I made to the forum was "why aren't new notes going into the existing clip?" Of course it's pretty easy to combine everything with Bounce to Clips, but having a single clip be the default would be preferable for me.
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BobF
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/04 18:09:04
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I would love to have noteless clips so I could use empty MIDI clips as region indicators ...
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/05 22:06:11
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I primarily want clipless notes.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/18 14:53:56
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/05 22:09:56
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Bounce-to-Clips purely for the purpose of creating some order is also dangerous. I have accidentally included clips I meticulously created earlier and only noticed my mistake much later.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/05 22:22:42
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Snehankur
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/05 23:13:39
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Just a question came to my mind...
If I draw some notes on the PRV how will it should reflect on the MIDI Track in the track view: as a clip or it should remain as individual notes along with clips?
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Kev999
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/06 01:12:25
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I used Propellerhead Reason briefly a few years ago. There, as I recall, it was necessary to create a midi clip first before drawing any notes. And, if you wanted to create notes outside the clip's span, it was necessary to either extend the clip or create another one. I used to find this annoying and definitely prefer the way Sonar works.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/06 07:33:44
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Snehankur
Just a question came to my mind...
If I draw some notes on the PRV how will it should reflect on the MIDI Track in the track view: as a clip or it should remain as individual notes along with clips?
You may have found the reason the programmer made the decision. To avoid this brain teaser. But to answer your question: In Clip mode you see but cannot edit individual notes. This should not change. So: Unclipped notes also visible, and also not editable. Only clips move. Clip view is a big-picture arranging workflow. Detailed work is another workflow. To edit the notes, just change the dropdown from Clips view to Notes view, or use PRV, as now. Perhaps when a clip overlaps individual notes, they could have their color dimmed to differentiate them from notes belonging to the overlapping clip. A practical solution would involve selecting between autoclip/manual clip as an easily accessible option (Menu + hotkey) to keep everybody happy.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/18 14:50:06
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scook
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/09 14:11:23
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It is possible to hide clip boundaries toggling "Show Clip Outlines" in the MIDI menu of the Track view and View menu in the PRV.
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williamcopper
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/16 20:20:00
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GREAT simplification. Clips are, to put it politely, the dumbest thing ever for midi stuff. Thanks for posting this feature request --- it took someone actually saying it to realize how many problems " CLIPS " make in midi. In this, Sonar and Cubase seem to be in a race to the bottom -- you can't even enter notes without drawing a fictitious "clip" in cubase.
post edited by williamcopper - 2016/01/16 20:33:49
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/18 14:34:48
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Thanks for the heads-up, I shaln't be looking at Cubase as a secondary DAW, then.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/01/18 14:44:03
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Kev999
I used Propellerhead Reason briefly a few years ago. There, as I recall, it was necessary to create a midi clip first before drawing any notes. And, if you wanted to create notes outside the clip's span, it was necessary to either extend the clip or create another one.
And thanks for the heads-up here, too. No Propellerhead Reason for me, then, either. I wonder how Studio One works?
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/08 15:55:56
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Got Studio One last week.
I'm a long way from being an expert in it's use, but it looks like you have to create a clip first before you can put any midi notes in. Figures, one of the developers came from Steinberg.
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mudgel
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/08 20:33:15
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Obviously I'm not a programmer so don't how it would work.
It seems from your comments that you guys must know these things so please explain to me how you can input a particular type of data viz MIDI data, without some form of virtual container eg a clip.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/09 06:46:47
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Music generated with midi is just a stream of event messages. A single note is simply a start/stop event pair.
To represent this in software, all relevant information for each individual note (start/stop times, note number, velocity, midi channel, etc...) is stored in a chunk of memory called a struct or record (different names for the same thing).
To put these note records in some sort of order, the programmer might create another chunk of memory to list pointers to each of these records in start-time order. Playing a song involves running along this list, sending out events as you go.
So far, no clips to be seen. My Cakewalk 4.0a DOS has no concept of clips.
Music consists of repetetive phrases, so someone had the idea of sublists of a phrases that can be moved within the main list. This harmonizes well with the philosophy of Object Oriented Programming. So we got Clips.
In most OOP languages, EVERYTHING must be an object. Unfortunately, us programmers being programmers, we like to make things easy for ourselves so this was taken to mean EVERYTHING must be a clip.
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azslow3
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/09 07:44:05
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jpetersen
Music generated with midi is just a stream of event messages. A single note is simply a start/stop event pair.
To represent this in software, all relevant information for each individual note (start/stop times, note number, velocity, midi channel, etc...) is stored in a chunk of memory called a struct or record (different names for the same thing).
To put these note records in some sort of order, the programmer might create another chunk of memory to list pointers to each of these records in start-time order. Playing a song involves running along this list, sending out events as you go.
So far, no clips to be seen. My Cakewalk 4.0a DOS has no concept of clips.
In fact start/stop event pair, which is required for one simple note, is already something more than just a MIDI event. The same for program/bank changes, 14bit CC and all (N)RPNs (normally 4 MIDI events). And so, as someone had awesome idea to call everything in OS "a file", someone else has made a clever decision to call everything on MIDI track "a clip". Do you see any benefits to introduce many different "quantities": MIDI event, MIDI event pair, MIDI event quad, several MIDI events (what you mention in OP for copy/pasting) and a clip (as a separate visual/logical group of MIDI events)? I personally prefer just "clip" for everything. Easy to understand, remember and work with. Note that in Sonar single Note is not an event pair. It is note start plus duration. While that can introduce some problems (for example with Yamaha synth logic), that simplifies housekeeping (we do not want have a possibility to by mistake delete NoteOff event separately from NoteOn). As you can find in the forum, some users are already confused by "p" boxes. But that is the only visualization for the program change. What you are asking is showing "Notes in clip" and "Notes without clip" at the same time. Do you have an idea how that should look like on track/PRV that casual user can understand the difference?
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stevec
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/09 14:19:11
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azslow3
...What you are asking is showing "Notes in clip" and "Notes without clip" at the same time. Do you have an idea how that should look like on track/PRV that casual user can understand the difference?
This is what I was wondering too. It was alluded to above, but I sill don't quite follow how these clip-less notes would actually display on screen - as little PRV rectangles floating within a track's vertical space? Similar to one big Inline PRV?
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/09 18:50:30
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@azlsow3: I was responding to mudgel using a simplified conceptual model. I was trying to describe the software implementation, not the GUI. @stevec said: "but I still don't quite follow how these clip-less notes would actually display on screen" Exactly the same way they display now. No change necessary. Try it in Sonar. Make two clips, add some notes to each and overlap one clip with the other. (Semi-transparent clips would be nicer, even now) I program midi solutions and am only too aware of the difficulties balancing usability with features. But the current clip implementation in Sonar is not satisfactory. If you have the time, please try the following, you will understand the issue better than me describing with endless words. Imagine you have a song where the first 3 notes of the chorus are actually still inside the verse's bar, like "Blueberry Hill", if you know that song. To simulate this: 1) Create a midi track and press Alt+3 to open the PRV. 2) Place some notes in the first bar for the verse and at the end of the first bar add 3 notes going from low to high which are the "intro" to the chorus. Then add some notes in the second bar for the main part of the chorus. Now imagine you want to rearrange the song so you now need to separate the verse and the chorus. Remember: the first 3 notes of the chorus are those at the end of the verse. How are you going to separate them into 2 clips? So what I am proposing is the ability to make notes members of a clip, or remove membership from a clip. This by implementation necessitates notes without clip membership to be possible.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/09 21:51:02
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stevec
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/09 21:58:45
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So... MIDI would display as it does now, in clip format? If so, then your request isn't so much a visual change in the track view but rather how notes themselves are handled?
For step 3, if I needed to move the end of bar 1 + bar 2 forward, I would select the clip(s), set the now time where the split point should be (at that first note), then press S. This is assuming that the notes are contained in the same clip and need to be split.
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azslow3
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 04:33:33
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jpetersen
@azlsow3: I was responding to mudgel using a simplified conceptual model. I was trying to describe the software implementation, not the GUI.
Apart from the last sentence, my comment was about software internals. And I do not see any simplified conceptual in you response, "start/stop event pair" is exact practical implementation.
If you have the time, please try the following, you will understand the issue better than me describing with endless words. Imagine you have a song where the first 3 notes of the chorus are actually still inside the verse's bar, like "Blueberry Hill", if you know that song. To simulate this:
1) Create a midi track and press Alt+3 to open the PRV.
2) Place some notes in the first bar for the verse and at the end of the first bar add 3 notes going from low to high which are the "intro" to the chorus. Then add some notes in the second bar for the main part of the chorus.
Now imagine you want to rearrange the song so you now need to separate the verse and the chorus. Remember: the first 3 notes of the chorus are those at the end of the verse. How are you going to separate them into 2 clips?
1) split at second bar 2) in PRV, select and cut notes from the first bar which are from chorus 3) lock verse clip 4) paste notes, that creates new clip 5) merge this new clip with chorus For better visual representation in the track view, put Chorus clip into another take lane. When editing overlapped clips in PRV, lock the one you do not want to modify. Please note, I am not claiming current MIDI implementation in Sonar is perfect. I just think that "flying in the air" group of notes is not going to help.
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Wookiee
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 08:41:38
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One could use markers to indicate the boundaries of Verse and Chorus. When the "clip", which is also how audio, loops etc, containers are referred to, all gets confusing select all the individual clips then bounce to clips, then select the bounced clip, Process > Spilt > At markers. you then have your individual units (clips) to arrange.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 09:16:36
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Hoo boy. I cannot believe such a simple idea is turning out to be so difficult to explain. Perhaps we simply cannot imagine any other way than how Sonar works now? Here's what I am proposing, as briefly as possible: 1) Allow notes to be placed manually, or allow them to be played in, without any clips appearing automatically. Just notes. 2) Once that is done, let the user decide which notes to select and group together into clips.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/10 09:22:46
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stevec
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 09:26:21
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Well, part of the issue for me (now) is that earlier there was this:
...but I still don't quite follow how these clip-less notes would actually display on screen?
Exactly the same way they display now. No change necessary.
But above you then wrote: "Allow notes to be placed manually, or allow them to be played in, without any clips appearing. Just notes."
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 10:35:12
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What I meant by "just as they do now" was, not as triangles or anything special.
But not in a clip.
Sorry, I could have expressed myself better.
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KPerry
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 10:43:13
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Am I right in thinking that actually this can be summarised by saying that an option to create one clip per note is what you want? Then SONAR doesn't have an "in clip"/"out of clip" dilemma and everything works as is now, but clips are simply created differently.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 13:07:58
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No. No enforced clip membership requirement at all. A clip is just a convenience. It allows grouping notes and moving them together. That's all it is. @KPerry: In your model, one would need to free a note from it's clip, then join it to another note's clip. An unnecessary extra step. But sure, allow the user to select a single note and create a clip around it. But let the user decide. Don't enforce it. Release notes from the tyrrany of clips! Freedom for all notes!
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/10 14:04:06
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Kev999
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 15:15:51
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jpetersen
1) Allow notes to be placed manually, or allow them to be played in, without any clips appearing automatically. Just notes.
2) Once that is done, let the user decide which notes to select and group together into clips.
Surely that would be less convenient, i.e. having to create clips yourself every time rather than having them there by default.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please remove the need for MIDI notes to be in a clip - esp. the current algorithm
2016/02/10 15:49:22
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Kev999
Surely that would be less convenient, i.e. having to create clips yourself every time rather than having them there by default.
What I am proposing is that you do NOT have to have clips every time. Only where you need one. It is the *default* clips that are inconvenient. Sonar does not know which notes are the Verse and which are the Chorus. It creates clips according to an algorithm. The default clips are almost always unusable and first have to be fixed. And Sonar puts EVERYTHING into a clip, even if you don't want one - like say for the Intro of a song. So often I have a clip and I try figure out why, then I remember: Oh. Sonar made that one. Let the user decide. Here's one way this could work. In the PRV: Lasso/Select some notes > Right mouse button menu > Choose "Group notes in a Clip". Much quicker than unpicking what Sonar has done by default, then redoing it the way you want.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/10 16:37:59
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