stratman70
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Problem with Delete Hole function with MIDI Track
So-midi file with 10 tracks. I want to delete measures 25 thru 28 and have the space dleted and both sides come together. So I select my 4 bars\all tracks. Now using delete special or cut special I check delete hole and shift by whole measures. Events etc are deleted but the hole remains. So what does the delete hole box mean? nothing? I have not trie this in many years, but eveidently a. I am missing a step or B. Sonar cannot do it. Thanks for any help
post edited by stratman70 - 2016/02/09 03:39:25
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SquireBum
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 00:09:33
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☄ Helpfulby stratman70 2016/02/09 11:30:28
stratman70
So-midi file with 10 tracks. I want to delete measures 25 thru 28 and have the space dleted and both sides come together.
So I select my 4 bars\all tracks. Now using delete special or cut special I check delete hole and shift by whole measures.
Events etc are deleted but the hole remains. So what does the delete hole box mean? nothing? I have not trie this in many years, but eveidently a. I am missing a step or B. Sonar cannot do it.
Thanks for any help
I can reproduce the behavior you are seeing in Platinum "Manchester" and Sonar X3e on my system. Test steps: 1. Create new project. 2. Insert new MIDI track. 3. Open PRV and enter 4 measures of quarter notes. 4. Clone MIDI track starting at track 2 with 2 repetitions. 5. Drag in Time line to select measures 2 through 3. 6. Select Tracks 1 through 3. 7. From the Edit menu, select Cut Special... 8. Check Events, Delete Hole, and Shift by Whole Measures. Expected results: The MIDI data in measures 2 and 3 would be deleted and the data in measure 4 would move to the end of measure 1. Actual results: The MIDI data in measures 2 and 3 were deleted and the data in measure 4 remained at measure 4 with a 2 measure blank hole. [FAILED] I executed the same procedure in Sonar X2a and found that the Delete Hole and Shift by Whole Measures functions matched the Expected results. Workaround:The only way Delete Hole works for me on MIDI tracks in Platinum and Sonar X3e is when I perform both of the following steps: 1. Uncheck Non-destructive MIDI editing in Preferences > Customization > Editing. 2. Uncheck Shift by Whole Measures. Conclusions: The Delete Hole and the Shift by Whole Measures options changed on my system between Sonar X2a and Sonar X3e. I don't know if the functional change between Sonar X2 and Sonar X3 was by design or whether it is a unintended regression bug that appeared in Sonar X3. Hope this helps, -- Ron
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SquireBum
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 00:16:40
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stratman70,
Just a suggestion, but I would change your OP title to something like "Problem with Delete Hole function with MIDI tracks". It might generate more interest from other members.
-- Ron
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum x64 2017.10, X3E, X2a, X1d, 8.5 Windows 10 x64 AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.20 GHz 8 GB Ram Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT Echo Gina 3G
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Paul P
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 01:34:38
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It sort of works for me (Delete Special, all boxed but one checked). If the selection range in entirely within one or more audio tracks, it works as expected. Following audio is moved back by the amount deleted. If the selection range falls within a midi clip, only the midi notes are deleted leaving empty space behind. The clip does not shrink in length. If the selection range includes clips and spaces between clips that are wholly contained within the selection range, following clips and spaces will move back. Sort of. Sometimes moved back by the amount expected. Often by some other amount that I can't quite figure out. Combining the last two cases, if the selection includes entire clips and spaces, but also only a part of a longer [midi] clip in another track, then things are deleted, but nothing will move back into the hole, the longer clip preventing it from happening. Surely this unpredictable and inconsistent behaviour has been reported. Is there any news on improvements in the works? Help isn't much help on this. All it says is : Delete HoleIf selected, the Delete Hole option removes the space in the track where the clip(s) had been. All clips after the deleted clip(s) are moved forward in time by the length of the deleted clip(s). Checking the Shift by Whole Measures option causes SONAR to move the following clips forward, but only as far as the nearest whole measure. Forward ?
post edited by Paul P - 2016/02/09 13:16:50
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 04:27:14
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Paul P
Help isn't much help on this. All it says is :
Delete Hole
If selected, the Delete Hole option removes the space in the track where the clip(s) had been. All clips after the deleted clip(s) are moved forward in time by the length of the deleted clip(s). Checking the Shift by Whole Measures option causes SONAR to move the following clips forward, but only as far as the nearest whole measure.
Forward ?
We once had lengthy discussions here about the meaning of "forward" on a DAW screen. According to my logics forward means "away from the start point, advancing" (toward right on the screen), but according to some others it means "towards the front/beginning". I haven't bothered to do serious work to find out what is correct, as english isn't my native language. Or, could "forward in time" mean something else as simply "forward"? But then, according to some a clock running backwards would move its hands forward, right? Anyway, I'm still at 8.5 and never had problems with delete hole-function.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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stratman70
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 10:31:37
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EDIT: OK-Tried Ron's workaround and it worked perfectly. Thanks very much Just a rant by a guy upset.... When you say you never had problems with this, are you saying it works as I described originally? And I know their was a lengthy discussion and nothing got done. So i guess this is just another bug that will again be forgotten about which I think truly "stinks" I am talking Midi only here. Imho this is really an example of who cares, enough folks aren't complaining about it I guess. Makes a guy really happy that he upgraded every year since the late 80's. Kind of like my profile always showing offline. Reported to CW in length and detail, more than once, no one cares enough to do anything about it. Oh well same ls same old
post edited by stratman70 - 2016/02/09 11:32:08
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torhan
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 13:26:58
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Yes, I can confirm that in X3, if you selected any audio and/or midi tracks that no data in the selected region, they would collapse as expected. Just upgraded to Platinum (working on first project with it) -- and the behavior has changed. It seems if a track in the selected region has no data, it does not collapse as expected, while those that have data do. EDIT: I opened another project, and it works as expected sometimes. Don't know if it's the way the tracks/measures are being selected, etc...but it's definitely inconsistent.
post edited by torhan - 2016/02/09 13:35:28
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Paul P
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 17:52:36
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Maybe we could trade the next New Thing for Delete Hole getting fixed.
I'd be happy with 12 installments of only bug fixes.
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Afrodrum
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 18:32:58
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+1. I wasted 15 minutes yesterday only to find out that Delete Hole does not work in Manchester as before.
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stratman70
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 20:18:16
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Rons advice did work, but it is a work around. I was able to delete the 4 bars and the hole and everything lined up. So the fix should be pretty easy. Of the 10 tracks in the project, 4 of them had no midi in those 4 bars but the work around still worked.
I use midi all the time...I have a bunch of old sequences from when O I toured as a one man band years ago (yes I know, one man whatever, $$ was good though)
Editing them is not the easiest thing in Sonar. I am just trying to update most of them for maybe a short run of playing some weddings, etc.
I need to remember to note what I feel good be easier...so I can contribute to the midi update post of late.
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Vastman
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/09 22:35:39
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☄ Helpfulby Kylotan 2016/02/11 06:26:56
First, I wanna say I love Sonar, find it elegant, easy to use, extremely powerful, and a bundle of fun getting results I never imagined back "in the day"... I know it pretty well so it lets me create seamlessly and I marvel at it's abilities. However, it's not perfect and this thread, which touches on Sonar' crappy arranging sysytem is a HUGE issue for me the other night I was trying to delete a section that went on too long in a song idea...and rework the transitions between parts... it was a royal PAIN IN THE REAR AND TOOK MUCH OF MY EVENING AND NEVER REALLY WORKED RIGHT...I finally gave up as the night was lost and went to bed frustrated...sure, it had multiple vocals, several Kontakts and Omnisphere's, BFD and a few other things... lots of midi and printed to audio...and level changes drawn in all over the place... but OY!!! This should be simple... it's something I'd really like to do more but don't because it is SOOOOO f'n challenging. I don't want to have to figure out if clips overlap or extend beyond the delete zone... or whatever I'm suppose to somehow remember and know... it should just WORK!!! I'm a songwriter... I create ideas, hone and refine them... I should be able to swipe a zone and pull down to include all the tracks (any kind of track should NOT matter), and cut it out, move it, paste it once, twice, whatever... and it should take one MINUTE, NOT an hour and still be messed up. Awhile back I was really excited about all the talk regarding the arrange system Presonus came up with and actually picked up S1v3pro in a good deal offered by a fello Caker, figuring I'd give it a serious looksee... I was angry at the amount of time it took to move chunks of ideas around and how it just didn't work... But I got busy at work, really love Sonar, saw all the support for this in the ideas forum... (it is the number one request I believe) and couldn't afford the time to learn S1v3 as to my dumb brain it just wasn't intuitive enough... This has been the subject of endless discussion. I DON'T want to have to locate all the workarounds and commit them to memory for a half baked process... I just wanna select, click, cut, paste and have it work.... OOOOYYYYY!!! Why is this so hard? Along the lines Paul mentioned, I'd give up the next 6 months of "stuff" for an EASY, FLAWLESS arrange system... IT IS A CRUCIAL ELEMENT OF SONG WRITING/EDITING/PRODUCTION. A daw should make this easy. It AIN'T... I don't whine often but this really bugs me. It'll be the push ultimately getting me to devote the time to see how it should be done...Jeff keeps reminding me that it's already sitting there on my hard drive, waiting to blow me away...I've been waiting patiently, figuring the bakers would respond to the other DAWs getting their acts together in this regard... Noel seemed to be considering some changes in this area but then went on to say they've been kicking this around for years...since this oblique comment last year in the suggestions forum, I've heard NOTHING and NOTHING is being mentioned in "Upcoming" planned thingys...If it continues to be ignored in my beloved daw of choice... I WILL spend the time elsewhere...and I DON'T want to... ARRRRRG!!!!
post edited by Vastman - 2016/02/09 23:04:18
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williamcopper
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/10 12:01:12
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Fully agree there's a bug involved in cutting and pasting, and one that can sometimes cause untold hours of work because it wasn't noticed at the right time.
fwiw -- I see failure to close the hole as a bug that raises its head only after a good deal of normal editing, not immediately.
Also, I believe that if your selection does not include a whole measure, then checking the "Shift by Whole Measures" does not work. Which means the check box is kind of a typical dumb idea anyway. How can you delete an amount of time that is NOT a whole measure and then shift by a whole measure?
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robert_e_bone
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/11 13:12:29
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I believe if you add a clip with some sort of dummy midi data in the space where you want the hole to be closed, (just to have some midi data in the region to be deleted) and then do the Delete Special, with the delete hole option specified, that might work.
Easy enough to test - give it a try. I am on my way to a doctor's appointment, or I would test if for you - sorry I have to run for now....
Bob Bone
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robert_e_bone
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/11 13:19:59
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Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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stratman70
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Re: old task-maybe old question-midi
2016/02/11 13:27:45
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As stated, maybe not too clearly. Using Rons workaround I was able to delte the hole and some tracks had midi data and some didn't.
Thanks
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jsg
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Re: Problem with Delete Hole function with MIDI Track
2016/02/11 16:27:54
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stratman70
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Re: Problem with Delete Hole function with MIDI Track
2016/02/11 17:13:30
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Paul P
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Re: Problem with Delete Hole function with MIDI Track
2016/02/11 17:19:33
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jsg
Go to preferences-editing and uncheck "Non-destructive MIDI editing". This fixes the problem..
Except that (I presume) you also destroy the original midi in the process. Something that doesn't happen with audio. Maybe it's time midi clips were stored separately just like audio. (why aren't they already ?)
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williamcopper
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Re: Problem with Delete Hole function with MIDI Track
2016/02/12 02:54:26
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A related issue arose after a good deal of cut, copy, and paste today: there were ghostly midi notes left audible after a cut --- not visible anywhere in event, track, or prv views, but clearly sounding. Edit -- that was result of paste having put midi notes into hidden tracks, so the ghostly sound is explained, but not how the notes got to an unused track.
post edited by williamcopper - 2016/02/12 03:01:04
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