swamptooth
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/30 23:59:54
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ok. next question... do you have stereo interleave on or off in the master bus and if so, is there any diff?
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 00:04:35
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I had stereo on. If I switch to mono (with the master panned hard left) same result - faint signal out the right monitor.
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swamptooth
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 00:05:31
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would you be willing to post the project file somewhere so i can take a listen? promise i will not infringe on copyrighted material!  pm me a link if so.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 00:08:17
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I would if I thought that would make any difference, but like I said I can reproduce this issue with a brand new project, no plugins, no nothing. Just pop open a new project, get some type of sound in there from any source, and this occurs. Reproducible across multiple projects, new and old.
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swamptooth
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 00:14:46
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right, but i don't use a babyface so that takes one factor out of the equation. two, i don't use the same studio monitors as you so that takes two factors out of the equation. three, my production room is shielded in 4 inch thick plates of lead in the event of nuclear attack, so cellphone towers have no effect. (just kidding!) really, at this point there's only so much that someone can answer without a project file and a different audio interface. 
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 00:42:21
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Ok, well now I'm jealous of your bomb shelter/studio! Here's a really pared-down project, just a click panned hard left going into the master which is stereo/centered - keep in mind I really have to crank my interface to 11 to experience the effect I'm describing. Not sure if this will help but I appreciate your willingness to troubleshoot. http://kybernetos.com/TestProj.zip
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swamptooth
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 00:54:22
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Cool. I'll take a look tomorrow. Actually therr is a way to check. I'd export the file (and i will) as a wav then open in audacity to check the wavforms. If there is data in the right channel then likely sonar. If not... Who knows...
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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LeBassist
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 12:58:43
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Just a quick test...
Delete the bus (master) and insert another one. If it not too loaded.
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 13:26:46
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I just loaded the project. I set the master bus meter range to 90 dB and didn't see anything. So then I panned the master bus output full right to hear only the right channel, put on headphones, and turned the interface headphone level up full blast. I couldn't hear anything.
Then I bounced the click track to a stereo track based on the master bus settings, set the left channel gain to minus infinity, and normalized the track to 100%. If the right track had anything, it would have been normalized up to something audible...still nothing.
There's definitely no interchannel leakage within SONAR. However, the click level is really hot. Are you SURE it's not audio crosstalk within the interface or some other element of your system outside of SONAR?
As I mentioned previously, crosstalk specs of -55 to -60 dB are not uncommon. You can hear tape hiss easily at -60 dB and -55 dB is about the S/N of AM radio stations. With a hot click level, you could definitely hear it in the other channel if the levels were turned up...probably even if the crosstalk was -65 or maybe even -70 dB.
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swamptooth
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 14:37:01
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I'm not getting any bleed either, through my onboard audio with 3 sets of cans or my FTU with monitors or the same cans. I'm guessing it's the babyface. Are you using the phones out or the outs on the breakout cable?
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 14:47:55
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swamptooth
Are you using the phones out or the outs on the breakout cable?
Breakout cables can be prone to crosstalk if they terminate in a connector where the pins are really close together...
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swamptooth
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/10/31 15:02:15
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Anderton
swamptooth
Are you using the phones out or the outs on the breakout cable?
Breakout cables can be prone to crosstalk if they terminate in a connector where the pins are really close together...
That's what I was thinking as well. At least it's not as bad as how my guitar kept picking up a spanish radio station a couple of weeks ago...
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/03 09:52:22
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Getting bleed through the phones and the breakout cables...agreed that it doesn't appear to be SONAR-related. Not sure what my next course of action is but I appreciate the research.
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tlw
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/03 18:24:50
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Anderton
As I mentioned previously, crosstalk specs of -55 to -60 dB are not uncommon. You can hear tape hiss easily at -60 dB and -55 dB is about the S/N of AM radio stations. With a hot click level, you could definitely hear it in the other channel if the levels were turned up...probably even if the crosstalk was -65 or maybe even -70 dB.
RME's specs for the analogue outs on the Babyface claim the same amount of channel seperation as their other USB/Firewire interfaces, i.e. greater then 110dB. I've just tried generating cross-talk in my UFX and I can't anything audible out of the right hand side with the left channel red-lined with white noise. maybe a few tiny flicks of the meter, that's it. The issue here could be a fault on the Babyface. Personally I'd be inclined to take it up with RME support to see what they say.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/03 19:04:09
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tlw
RME's specs for the analogue outs on the Babyface claim the same amount of channel separation as their other USB/Firewire interfaces, i.e. greater then 110dB.
It depends whether that's across the entire frequency range, at 1 kHz, etc. I've tested interfaces that specify X amount of crosstalk, and they meet that spec but only over a certain range of frequencies or at certain mic preamp levels. The only real way to determine crosstalk is to see a graph that shows the amount of crosstalk across all frequencies for a variety of input and output levels. I'm not saying at all that RME is trying to be deceptive, just that a lot of times specs are "shorthand" because most consumers wouldn't know what to do with more technical info. Also, if 90% of interface manufacturers give best-case specs, you kind of have to go along. I know of one PA product ( not Cerwin-Vega!) whose wattage specification is theoretically possible, but can be obtained only if you defeat all the thermal protection. Good luck with that after running it for 5 minutes  Also, the channel separation within the interface may be tested without the breakout cable being connected, which could influence the results. Furthermore, the source signal is a click, so it's generating a lot of energy when it clicks. It would be interesting to know if this bleed tends toward high frequencies. Bottom line is it's not SONAR, so I'm not ready to rule out crosstalk.
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tlw
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/04 23:21:24
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It seems obvious there's crosstalk getting in after Sonar, or at least I've never seen crosstalk in Sonar and, it being entirely digital, either it's not there or lots of people would have seen it. I just thought I'd see if it's an issue with RME generally, and as far as I can see it isn't, at least not noticeably so. Unless my interface is the odd one out. I thought of frequency issues which is why I thought white noise might be the way to go, but even as hot as I can get it nothing shows up.
Could be the breakout cable, as you say, or the preamp for the cable.
As for manufacturer specs, there should be an industry award for the one finding the most imaginative way to not quite misrepresent their products.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/06 12:04:20
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So correct me if I'm wrong, but the export from SONAR should be without crosstalk right? Because the output device has nothing to do with the mixdown process. Here's an export of one of the tracks in question: http://kybernetos.com/03_Servants_CSm_v2.21.mp3 Can someone confirm/deny that the left channel is entirely devoid of click? I can hear it faintly in the left channel played through a number of devices.
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/06 12:46:17
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There is a click in there, however, it is buried in a noise floor and that fact alone is significant - it means that the click has become part of an audio stream somewhere. Referring back to your original post, it's easy to show that panning a signal 100% to one side in SONAR does not produce any signal in the other side in the form of digital data. If you don't believe me, do this: 1. Insert mono audio into a track. Pan the track full left. 2. Bounce to a new track, with Main Outputs as the Source Category to make sure you're picking up the entire signal chain. 3. The new track will have audio only in the left channel. 4. Select the new track, then go Process > Apply Effect > Gain and turn down both left channels to -INF (0.0%). Click OK. 5. Now the bounced track appears to have no audio. 6. Select the bounced track and choose Process > Apply Effect > Normalize. If anything was in the right channel, this would bring its level up to maximum. You will not find the cause of this issue by looking within SONAR's audio engine or mixer, because that is not where the problem lies. I can think of only two options: - Something is misset inside SONAR, within a plug-in, or something that doesn't relate to panning per se.
- The click has "hitched a ride" on an audio signal, which I think is more likely. I don't know what you are recording, how you are recording it, how your patch bay is set up, if you use mics, whether you're picking up radiated leakage from headphones or speakers, or what could be the cause. It could perhaps be diagnosed by long distance but we would need a complete rundown of the audio routing and recording procedures you use.
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/07 12:21:09
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The export I posted is a good example because it's a pretty straight-forward project as of now.
Track 1: an audio "guide" which is a Guitar Pro wav export, imported into SONAR. Muted at mixdown time.
Track 2: a click track I created in Dimension Pro using the Piano Roll View and creating a groove clip
Tracks 3,4,5: Dimension pro string/brass/orchestral tracks. I generally compose in Guitar Pro, export the midis from GP, import midis into SONAR for use with Dimension Pro
So no mic involvement, no actual "recording", just wav/midi manipulation. I don't believe Dimension Pro or midi is the culprit. As an even simpler example, the TestProj.zip I posted earlier is a single wav imported into SONAR and panned - I can export that and hear the same bleed.
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brconflict
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/07 12:24:32
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scook
Are their any plug-ins in the signal path which may introduce crosstalk?
This can easily be the case. Some Mono/Stereo plug-ins may induce a little bit of cross-talk, which may be produced by the modeling techniques or just the stereo-to-mono conversion, if mis-matched. Disable all plug-ins with the FX button at the top and see if the cross-talk remains.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/07 12:38:44
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darkcatalyst
The export I posted is a good example because it's a pretty straight-forward project as of now.
Track 1: an audio "guide" which is a Guitar Pro wav export, imported into SONAR. Muted at mixdown time.
Track 2: a click track I created in Dimension Pro using the Piano Roll View and creating a groove clip
Tracks 3,4,5: Dimension pro string/brass/orchestral tracks. I generally compose in Guitar Pro, export the midis from GP, import midis into SONAR for use with Dimension Pro
So no mic involvement, no actual "recording", just wav/midi manipulation. I don't believe Dimension Pro or midi is the culprit. As an even simpler example, the TestProj.zip I posted earlier is a single wav imported into SONAR and panned - I can export that and hear the same bleed.
But here's the crux of the issue. I downloaded your test project. I panned the waveform full left and bounced to track. There was zero signal in the right channel. I then exported as a WAV file, brought the waveform into SONAR, and there was still zero bleed in the right channel. I even did this several times with different dithering types because if the dithering math isn't totally random, that can compromise stereo separation. In all tests I normalized the right channel to bring up anything that might be there, however faint. All it did was bring up the dither noise. There was no click present at all. With your test project I am not able to duplicate your results within SONAR. Therefore the problem does not lie with SONAR. It relates to something unique to your project or setup that it not present in my setup. Regardless of whether you explicitly work with audio or miking, the whole point about leakage is that it is an undesired, unplanned migration of audio from one point to another. There are many ways this can happen, and the fact is you have an audio interface so there are audio inputs and outputs regardless of how you have integrated those into a project. You will not be able to solve this issue by looking within SONAR's audio engine. That is not where the problem lies, or I would have been able to duplicate your results with your project.
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/09 20:17:19
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But wouldn't you figure that all project settings would be attached to the project itself? Since the interface is a non-factor here, and it's not the SONAR audio engine, what else could it possibly be? Are there any global settings unrelated to a project that could be having an effect here?
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/09 21:14:03
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darkcatalyst
But wouldn't you figure that all project settings would be attached to the project itself? The project consists of only the settings that are within Sonar. This is why your results cannot be reproduced here, because when I load your test project, it reproduces only what Sonar is doing. Sonar is indeed panning 100%, so the problem must be something outside of Sonar. Your test project eliminates Sonar as a possible source of the issue. Since the interface is a non-factor here, and it's not the SONAR audio engine, what else could it possibly be? Are there any global settings unrelated to a project that could be having an effect here?
We don't know for sure that the interface is a non-factor. It could be coincidence that when the interface is not part of the system, the results cannot be reproduced and when the interface is a part of the system, the results can be reproduced. But I can't think of any global setting that would make a difference. Clearly the interface is attached to the computer via USB or you would not be able to monitor the audio. FWIW a USB bus is not always 100% "clean" from an audio standpoint. The best example of this is when adding a USB hard drive introduces faint clicks into the audio interface due to power supply fluctuations. Remember that all the USB ports on your computer often connect to only a single controller. I eliminated these types of problems completely by purchasing a USB PCI card that's dedicated solely to audio-related USB accessories. The computer's USB ports go to mouse, keyboard, hard drive, dongles etc. where noise is not an issue. Interestingly there's another thread on the forum where someone talks about not being able to pan 100% and he mentions using an RME Babyface. I tend to think it's not the same issue you're experiencing but maybe a misunderstanding of how the stereo/mono options work in Sonar, but still, it was interesting to have two threads show up with problems not before seen in the forums, or reproducible by other users, that mention using the Babyface. Are you sure there's not a stealth setting somewhere in Totalmix that's causing issues? Can you borrow a USB PCI card to see if that makes a difference?
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/10 11:34:05
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Anderton
The project consists of only the settings that are within Sonar. This is why your results cannot be reproduced here, because when I load your test project, it reproduces only what Sonar is doing. Sonar is indeed panning 100%, so the problem must be something outside of Sonar. Your test project eliminates Sonar as a possible source of the issue.
Are you implying that there are project settings that are beyond the scope of SONAR? Not sure exactly what you're saying here, but that would seem strange to me, being that the project file is a proprietary SONAR format. Anderton
We don't know for sure that the interface is a non-factor.
I think we can conclude that it's a non-factor when working within the mixdown scope only. All of this behavior can be reproduced without introducing any interface into the equation. As in the test project, a wav was imported, panned, and exported - no interface involvement, yet the mixdown still has the bleed issue. I think this is the best way to approach the problem since it eliminates a lot of variables. Yet, since it seems no one else is able to reproduce my results, the logical conclusion is that it has something to do with my environment. I don't think there's anything particular special about my Win7 Ultimate 64bit setup, nor can I think of anywhere else to look - grasping at straws at this point.
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2014/11/10 11:58:50
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darkcatalyst
Anderton
The project consists of only the settings that are within Sonar. This is why your results cannot be reproduced here, because when I load your test project, it reproduces only what Sonar is doing. Sonar is indeed panning 100%, so the problem must be something outside of Sonar. Your test project eliminates Sonar as a possible source of the issue.
Are you implying that there are project settings that are beyond the scope of SONAR? Not sure exactly what you're saying here. I'm saying there are a lot of elements outside Sonar, like the interface, USB bus, cabling in the studio, etc. Anderton
We don't know for sure that the interface is a non-factor.
darkcatalyst
I think we can conclude that it's a non-factor when working within the mixdown scope only. All of this behavior can be reproduced without introducing any interface into the equation. If the interface is connected to USB, and there are audio cables involved at all, it's a factor. It just occurred to me (I'm a little slow sometimes!) that you could have a ground loop, and therefore, audio is traveling along the ground lines. You could have all the controls on your interface turned down to nothing and the inputs shorted out, but if audio is on the ground lines, it's going to be VERY difficult to keep out of your project as long as there are any audio connections involved on any level. Presumably there are, because you're monitoring the audio. I think a ground loop is a very likely candidate for the source of the problem. The character of the "hash" noise that's in with the click leak in your MP3 file is characteristic of the type of garbage audio that appears on ground lines through ground loops.
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taccess
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2016/02/10 03:05:27
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Hi , Did you find a fix ? I have a Babyface and am experiencing the same low audible sound when I hard pan either way ?
post edited by taccess - 2016/02/10 05:08:22
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2016/02/10 10:47:20
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I never found a good answer to this in SONAR. However it was one of the many issues that eventually drove me to switch to Pro Tools, and I haven't looked back.
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taccess
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2016/02/10 20:40:30
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I never found a good answer to this in SONAR. However it was one of the many issues that eventually drove me to switch to Pro Tools, and I haven't looked back.
Hi thanks for the reply , but its not sonar , i have opened a new Platinum project with 1 track > then using win audio-Asio4all - laptop headphone jack > hard panned the track and it is completely silent in the opposite ear !As it should be !
However as soon as i connect the snow edition babyface and route the same track to total mix fx and hard pan the same track there it is in the opposite ear ..Also if i open a video in VLC player and then go to total mix fx and hard pan in total mix fx ,the problem is the same again ,i can still hear the movie in the opposite ear ! so its either the babyface or total mix fx ??? ( Also i just want to note that when this bleed or whatever its called occurs - in total mix fx there is no meters showing it happen !NOTHING)
Glad to hear you like pro tools , i started with fl studio then went to ableton then to sonar and have been diving deep now for 1.5 years and still going , my plan was to go to pro tools last but the recent updates have solidly grounded me at cakewalk now forever , there are some things i would like to see added to platinum and at the rate the rolling updates occur i am sure they will fly by soon enough , thanks for the reply i just hope mattias over at rme forum will help because i am thinking time for a new audio unit , however i do want to know if its just some units or all babyfaces that this happens to .
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darkcatalyst
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2016/02/10 21:12:31
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Interesting, we must be experiencing different issues with the same outcome. I tried multiple outputs from SONAR including the Babyface, FireStudio Project, and Alesis MultiMix and always experienced the same issue. It disappeared with Pro Tools. Hope you're able to find an answer.
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Anderton
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Re: 100% Panning Issue
2016/02/11 14:33:31
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darkcatalyst
Interesting, we must be experiencing different issues with the same outcome. I tried multiple outputs from SONAR including the Babyface, FireStudio Project, and Alesis MultiMix and always experienced the same issue. It disappeared with Pro Tools. Hope you're able to find an answer. This piqued my curiosity so I wanted to find out if SONAR indeed had inter-channel leakage. It does not. Here's the test so others can prove to their own satisfaction there is no "100% panning issue." - Place a mono signal on an audio track, panned full left.
- Send the track to the master bus.
- Insert 10 Channel Tools in the master bus, applying 0 dB gain to the Left channel and 6 dB of gain to the Right channel, for a total of 60 dB of gain applied to the right channel.
- Set the Master bus meter set to the -90 dB range.
 Refer to the screen shot. On playback, there is full signal in the left channel and nothing in the right channel. Note that with the -90 dB meter setting and 60 dB of gain, any signal in the right channel higher than -150 dB would have registered. It didn't. There is nothing in the right channel if a mono signal is panned all the way to the left channel. As to why things worked with Pro Tools, there are a number of ways this issue could happen in SONAR. For example bouncing to a stereo track with dithering on would leave a dithered signal in the right channel. I tested this. With an identical setup but with dither applied on a bounce, the level in the right channel was -54 dB. If Pro Tools doesn't dither on bounce, this won't be a problem (note that in SONAR preferences, you can turn off dithering).There are several other possible scenarios, but they all involve a misset parameter. If an equivalent parameter is not misset in Pro Tools, obviously the same problem will not happen. Bottom line: SONAR itself does not have a 100% panning issue.
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