Out in the Open-Original X3 Studio

Original song.  Jazz/Pop chord progression I came up with and ran through Toontrack EZ Keys in a "Doobie ala Michael McDonald" type groove and some of my own grooves so the piano part is hybrid.  Bass is Trilian Bass Module funk sound.  Also features EZ Drummer grooves/fills and horns from Garritan JABB, Strings by NI Session Strings and Miroslav Philharmonik.  Hope you can enjoy it.
 
http://johnbowen.bandcamp.com/track/out-in-the-open
 
John B.

John,
 
Cool song and decent mix.   To my ear, the bass, drums and piano all seem a bit too stiff together.   Maybe try some groove quantize or add a little swing to the parts.   The problem with using MIDI loops is that they can sometimes sound a bit mechanical. The piano will also sound more loose as a result of those changes.  You have a good thing here, just needs to maybe loosen up a bit.  I would also put the drums, bass and piano into a common space.  Very nice song and good vocal performance.  

As the others have said - This tune would be greatly enhanced if you loosened it up and let it swing a bit. Also-
 
>Get rid of the left hand bass in the piano when it conflicts with the "Bass" bass line. Maybe leave the bass in the piano for the intro, but then do not bring in the Bass until the verse - or maybe even delay the Bass until after the first verse completes(00:54) or even (01:17). This would also help add variation to the song.
>Try widening the piano all the way from left to right. Too far left now.
>All the non-drum instruments sound -to my taste - too synthesized. Try for a more acoustic sounds.
>As Allen said, maybe add a nice rhythm guitar part and then bring down the keys more into the mix.
>It would be cool if you could find a female singer with a good Jazz voice to do this. If you want to keep it for yourself, then I would say you might try a fairly strong double-track and some delay/reverb, especially on the changes and choruses. Some fairly heavy compression on the lead vocal might also work for you.

Very nice tune... I think you nailed this one exactly the way you had intended it to be. Vocals and Piano are really fine. It has a Neil Young vibe to it. The orchestration works equally well.  Enjoyed this one alot. 
... Just noticed that your from Reading, PA.  I lived in Emmaus for about 8 years.  

Johnbee58
Thanks guys.  Voice is bad because of asthma and the meds I take for it.  It would suck no matter what key, so I might as well go with a key I like and do the best I can.
 
John B.

John,
 
I think your singing is fine, actually not bad at all.   My comment was specifically about the mechanical timing of the bass/drums/piano.   Your vocal would be helped with a more swinging track and some of the compression, double-tracking or verb updates recommended above but the singing itself is pretty good.   I don't have asthma and can't sing half that well:)
 
Regards

Thanks for sharing.

Thanks, Bapu & Daryl.  I usually mix the piano a bit left because of the headroom situation.
 
John B.

Well OK.  Just to let you know, when I was working on this I DID actually use C  in the bass there (if my memory serves me correctly.  I'm not at my DAW now, but I remember I moved the MIDI a half step).  Initially, my "music sense" dictated it should be as you say, but the more I listened to it, the more conflicting that sounded to me, so I moved the bass down a half step to the B there.  Then, just to make sure everything was jiving I looked at the piano MIDI and the bass and all the notes matched in both parts so I did what made sense to me at the time.  I could very easily change it back to C on that note, but then I'd be back to square 1.  There are a couple of explanations as to why this made more sense to me.  Number 1 is I listen to an awful lot of Jazz, where sometimes things happen that don't always make sense to the listener, at least initially.  Number 2, the piano is actually an EZ Keys pattern at that point.  I used the EZ Key loops at some places in the song and do my own patterns in other places. I generally come up with a chord progression, then go to the EZ Keys browser and let that do its thing.  Sometimes I have to edit a bit as the patterns don't always jive with my chords. All I know is it makes perfect sense to my ears.  Maybe I'm weird, I don't know, but it sounds great to me.  You, of course, and everybody else are entitled to your opinion, but I have had a lot of positive feedback on this tune as well.
 
JB

Interesting thread… Generally song comments have been about mixing tips, recording techniques, plug-ins, effects,  performance, musical style, et.al…. or just fun.    Not too many comments getting in the weeds on music theory unless someone is way out in left field or the composer is asking for guidance.   This song is certainly not harmonically incorrect and does not sound remotely dissonant or wrong in any way.  If it were there might have been other comments to that effect.
 
My personal comment and some of the others were about the swing or lack of swing between the Drums, Bass and Piano.    I can tell you musically I didn't hear anything "wrong" and to the contrary I think it is pretty cool.   I would just loosen it up a bit so it just swings a little, everything else is quite good. 
 
There are many ways to skin a cat chordally and it is ultimately up to the artist to determine the best route to express the song to its’ full potential.  Do I use major, minor, altered chord, triton substitutions,   Should I go Dm7, G7, C or Dm, Ab7, C, or Dm7, Db7, C or Dm7, G7b5 to C or Dm, G13b9 to CMaj7?   Doesn’t much matter as long as everyone is going in the same direction. 
 
Many new people here, so maybe the status quo is changing, however, I personally wonder how productive comments about chord choices in the Songs Forum are unless someone is specifically asking for assistance or the choice they have made is obviously bad? These theory discussions have generally been reserved for the Techniques forum.   The chord choices in this song are maybe not pop-oriented, canned rock progressions but they are definitely interesting.  Reminded me a bit of some of the early Steely Dan.  They certainly made a career on using the 4^th as the chord root.  G/C or Cmaj9 if you prefer, and using passing tones in the process.
 
There are plenty of examples in music where half step intervals within a chord produce interesting harmonies whether they are at different octaves or the same octave.  
 
Anyway, sorry to derail your thread, I just wanted to say I am not part of the “we are voicing our opinions” about your chord choices   I like the song and thought it was pretty cool.

Regards

Mark-Thanks again for "coming to my aid".
 
Guitarpima-Thank you for listening.  I thought the funky bass sound suited the piano vibe here.  Also, thanks for the Neil Young compare.  My voice once was more solid, but as I told JKose above, I recently developed chronic asthma.  So between the condition itself and the meds I have to take for it, my voice tracks have become a line-for-line affair in the recording process.  It's frustrating as hell, but I appreciate that some people are taking notice that I still have something to offer there.
 
JB

Hey, I can tell you took a lot of time and effort to create that piece.  I myself am envious of what you have accomplished.  I really appreciate the song.
 
I must also say that I enjoyed the dialogue from the other commenters.  I did not understand a lot of it, but it did reveal to me the depth of peoples knowledge and their feelings.
 
Unfortunately, this is the internet, and much of what is meant will be lost in translation.  It happens to me all the time in other forums.
 
I'm not sure about the "status quo," nor do I know if there are a lot of new people around this forum, but the song helped me think of new ways to compose, and the comments helped me realize that there is an infinite variety of music.
 
JB, I hope you post some more material, and jkoseattle, I will search the internet for some of your work, maybe better, you can post it here....maybe you have, but I'm new around these parts.
 
Jesse Q. Screed
 
More derailment, jkoseattle, can you tell me the chords I play in my song  "Snow Day...Mix 4x?"  I have no idea what I did.
 
 
 
 

I'm sorry, but I found this thread fascinating.  I think jkoseattle is being a little misunderstood here.  He seemed to voice his opinion very civilly and constructively.  And he clearly stated none of this "conflict" was a problem, just that it needs to be pointed out to the artist so it becomes a purposeful rule breaking and not accidental.  After all, if I had a conflicting note and I didn't realize it, wasn't hearing it, I would want someone to point it out to me.  
 
And they did...on a song I posted a year or so ago.  It was a pop-piano type piece and I was doing a half-step climb up to the next note on the scale and it sounded kind of funny to people.  I actually did that on purpose, and I liked it (reminded me of Lennon's "Jealous Guy" progression)  but I was thankful that people pointed it out to me on here.  I left it that way, but I appreciate knowing the impression of others.  

I do agree there's a strict limit to that sort of thing, because we're getting into extremely subjective, and personal creative expression.  I am very thin skinned, myself, but I thought jkoseattle walked that line very well, and respectfully.  

rbecker - I also have thought it would be great when people are posting songs here to say what kind of critiques, if any, they want. Honestly, often a body will just want to say "Look what I did! Yay me!" and critiques are not wanted or welcome or anything, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I certainly hope there's room for it, (otherwise why are we bothering?). Other times, they may want to know "Is this anything?" or "Do you like my guitar solo?" or "Can you hear the lyrics?" 
 
Johnbee did NOT ask for critiques when he posted his song. We just all took it upon ourselves to provide them, me included. On one hand, someone could say "When you post here it's understood you are opening yourself up to reactions", but on the other hand, he didn't ask for them, so maybe we're in the wrong for providing them.
 
I for one am really sorry, Johnbee, that I provided a critique that was not asked for. I really hope you don't stop posting here. Clearly, the heart and soul is in your endeavors, I just hope the strength you need is within reach.
 
In any case, I think there is absolutely a difference between someone just doing show and tell vs someone requesting critiques. I'm going to be careful from now on. Suffice to say, I'm extremely sensitive to songwriting quality, and that's always what I hear first. I have no patience for a song I've heard ten thousand times before. I would rather hear unique failures all day long than uninspiring work from someone who can tweak all the knobs and yet doesn't understand why he hasn't made the big time.
 
It should be:
Be myself - fail, ow
Be myself - fail, ow
Be myself - fail, ow
Be myself - fail, ow
Be myself - fail, ow
Be myself - succeed - yeeeahh!
 
And not:
Be someone else - fail, oh well
Be someone else - fail, oh well
Be someone else - fail, oh well
Be someone else - fail, oh well
Be someone else - fail, oh well
Be someone else - succeed, meh
 
 

rbecker
Maybe anyone who posts a song here should declare the level of "observations" he or she is looking for. This could range from "Just HOW great did you say my song is?" to "Anything at all, plus the horse I rode in on". 

 
Very thoughtful post, I don't think we need to  go to extreme and don't think you really meant that we should.  Who would want to bother posting on a site where all you hear is "that is great."   Well, maybe some people would like that  ......but probably not anyone who posts here...
 
The reason I commented on this thread was two-fold.   I don't think it is productive to continue pushing ideas on someone's post after they have dismissed your opinion.   That is my opinion and certainly anyone is free to accept or reject that opinion.   Personally, I have done that (pushed comments) on several occasions and wish someone would have said something about it.    Everyone here is very respectful and extremely helpful, it is an amazing place to learn and get ideas      I don't think anyone was "out-of-line" or anything to that effect.  Just realize that when giving critical suggestions sometimes people take it and sometimes they leave it.  If they leave it, respect that and let it go... More often than not, when people get multiple comments on the same thing, you will see a follow-up mix or change in the song which suggests that they accepted the ideas.  Other times the person may say, "this is it and I'm done with this project."
 
Secondly, people are here for many different reasons.   Some people are trying to become better song-writers, producers, musicians, collaborators,  some to development their mixing or production skills, some for fun, some to blow off steam after a hard day at work, some because they are retired and do this as a hobby, et. al.      Personally, I like as much critical mix input as possible because I am here to become a better mixer/engineer but others may be here for different reasons and may not care about certain aspects of critical comment.  Or, they may simply not agree with your suggestions.     In those cases, we should simply respect that and move on. 
 
Certainly the Internet is rife with messages being mis-understood or taken out of context, fully agree there.   People have different ways of looking at things and that keeps it all interesting.      Everyone on this Songs Forum has offered great submissions and suggestions and would not want to see that change in any way.  I am saying what I wrote above is how this Forum should run, it is simply how I look at it and why I responded as I did. 
 
Sorry again, John, for the de-rail...
 
Regards

I like it alot. I think the mix (levels and eq) could use a bit more effort but I like the arrangement chords and melody.