jpetersen
No. No enforced clip membership requirement at all.
A clip is just a convenience. It allows grouping notes and moving them together. That's all it is.
 
@KPerry: In your model, one would need to free a note from it's clip, then join it to another note's clip. An unnecessary extra step.  But sure, allow the user to select a single note and create a clip around it. But let the user decide. Don't enforce it.
 
Release notes from the tyrrany of clips! Freedom for all notes!

I meant as an option on create, so you wouldn't need to "do" anything to make them into clips or distinct.

KPerry
I meant as an option on create, so you wouldn't need to "do" anything to make them into clips or distinct.

Even as an option, what's the use? You then need to "undo" everything to make them into what you need.

I want that time to move my project forward.

KPerry
In which case, I have no idea what you want - I propose an option to *not* group notes into clips but to leave one note per clip, which is apparently what you want, and you say you then need to add an extra step.  Makes no sense at all.

I guess he wants:
1) (invisible) full track length MIDI clip on every track
2) to which all notes goes by default
3) other MIDI clips are created by "Group notes in clip" menu option and then "locked" all the time
4) in the Track view, overlapped MIDI clips are shown as with Take Lanes opened and the clips in different lanes (transparent)
5) overlapped clips in the PRV are shown the same way as clips from different tracks (colored)
 
What I do not understand:
a) for what all that is good
b) the examples, especially #31 which make no sense for me. I often split one track into many:
b.1) copy the clip and then remove notes, in case I want original clip stay as it is. Or...
b.2) focus target track, set Now time to the first note I want in it (or to some other position I want), select/cut required notes and paste. Or...
b.3) copy/cut/paste in PRV with several tracks opened, using visibility and locks to keep the source and the target under control.
 
And so I do not understand the whole topic. The only bug which annoys me a bit is that "Undo" history shows wrong description for notes copy/paste (the text is from different previous operation). It still works correct, so no real problem there.
 

Select the MIDI track strip itself > right-click on any clip > choose Bounce to Clips and the result is a single MIDI clip.    Maybe that's one reason I also have been missing the critical nature of this request, because getting a single clip (when desired) is so simple.   Creating separate clips from one track length clip is less so. 
 
But it's also the visual aspect that still doesn't make sense to me....   William states "Call that an "invisible clip" if you must, but let it be not only invisible but never needing to be touched, extended, bounced, or modified."    So what exactly would one see in the Track View that represent the existence of MIDI data?   
 
I don't really think it's an "appreciation" thing as much as just not mentally visualizing on the same page. 
 
 

I think I slowly starting to understand the point...
 
Sonar is "classic" style recording oriented, also in MIDI. I mean even in case you record something like that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdH1hSWGFGU you still get just one clip. And as with normal instruments recording, it is good to have "Take 4" information, clear see what you have recorded as last, A/B different performances and so on.
 
But as soon as you start "one finger" recording in a loop or composing by adding separate notes at arbitrary locations, the number of "clip-notes" explodes. Sonar can not record looping into one clip, it can not life record into Step Sequencer and it can not record into Matrix. And so it is simply not the right tool for doing such things. For composing with mouse I think pre-creating track-long clips should be not much disturbing workaround, while that still does not solve the problem with MIDI input.
 
So, (2) should be rewritten as "enable recording MIDI into existing clips, by default into the (invisible) track-long clip".
 
 

Thanks, it is getting clearer....   perhaps two enable/disable options then: "Use existing MIDI clip(s)" along with "display clip boundaries"?    I changed Aslow's description slightly because manually entering notes in the PRV isn't really "recording" per se.   Same idea though in the end. 
 

Here is another scenario: The opening 4 bars of 2001 Space Odyssey (3 long notes).
I play the 3 notes on my keyboard using a trumpet sound.
 
The first, lowest note starts at bar 1 and extends for 4 bars.
The second starts at bar 2 and extends for 3 bars.
The third at 3 for 2 bars.
 
Now I want the lowest note to be played on another track with a pipe organ sound.
 
 Sonar has already decided to put all 3 notes into a clip. I do not want this. So I have to:
1) Split the clip between bars 1 and 2,
2) Drag the left clip into the pipe organ track
3) Extend the length of the clip to 4 bars, revealing the fact that it has also copied the other 2 notes
4) Delete the other two excess notes.
 
If clips were optional, I could:
1) On the lowest note do Rightmouse>Choose "Group notes in a Clip". Yes, I have created a single-note clip! :)
2) Drag it into my pipe organ track.

jpetersen
Now I want the lowest note to be played on another track with a pipe organ sound.
 
 Sonar has already decided to put all 3 notes into a clip. I do not want this. So I have to:
1) Split the clip between bars 1 and 2,
2) Drag the left clip into the pipe organ track
3) Extend the length of the clip to 4 bars, revealing the fact that it has also copied the other 2 notes
4) Delete the other two excess notes.
 
If clips were optional, I could:
1) On the lowest note do Rightmouse>Choose "Group notes in a Clip". Yes, I have created a single-note clip! :)
2) Drag it into my pipe organ track.

Sorry, but I will ask one more time:
 
Why you do not (want to) cut the first note and paste it into organ track? You can control how it is places, as new clip or into existing clip.
 
While as you could see I more or less understand some problems, your examples still puzzle me...

You responded to the situation I mentioned when a bar has notes that should be grouped into 2 different clips, verse and chorus and the notes are mixed in that bar ("Blueberry Hill").
 
Your suggestion was:
 
1) split at second bar
2) in PRV, select and cut notes from the first bar which are from chorus
3) lock verse clip
4) paste notes, that creates new clip
5) merge this new clip with chorus
 
You are right, of course. But so much work?
It would be so much faster just to lasso those notes that belong to the verse and do Rightmouse>"Group notes in a Clip". Then lasso those for the chorus and do the same. Done.
 
But for this to be possible, Sonar must stop automatically putting events in clips. Sonar does not know the difference between a Verse and a Chorus. Only a human does. So let the human do it.
 
I tried WilliamCopper's example. In the event view, I added a program change event.
And exactly like he said, Sonar put it in one of the existing clips. So now, if I move the notes in that clip, I also move the program change! Why does Sonar think I want to do that? So I have to snip out the program change, move it away, bounce the two clips to close the hole, go to the clip with the program change and remove all the notes that are still in it - and FINALLY I have a clip with only the program change. And all I wanted was a program change at bar 21. I don't even need a clip for that.
 
Clips are supposed to help. But they don't.
 
Sometimes I feel as if I am the only person using midi in Sonar. I really do.
 
 

jpetersen
You responded to the situation I mentioned when a bar has notes that should be grouped into 2 different clips, verse and chorus and the notes are mixed in that bar ("Blueberry Hill").
 
Your suggestion was:
 
1) split at second bar
2) in PRV, select and cut notes from the first bar which are from chorus
3) lock verse clip
4) paste notes, that creates new clip
5) merge this new clip with chorus
 
You are right, of course. But so much work?
It would be so much faster just to lasso those notes that belong to the verse and do Rightmouse>"Group notes in a Clip". Then lasso those for the chorus and do the same. Done.

Ok, I have got it
My "philosophy" is just a bit different in such cases. I first do split approximately at parts changes, still in the track view. Than (not always immediately) open PRV to adjust on note level. But I agree, when looking in total that is slower.
 
So, lets return to the "fast" methods: after you have selected chorus notes, position "Now" at first one (one click), "Ctrl-X", select verse (one click, may be croping its length if desired), "Alt-E" (my current binding to lock click), "Ctrl+V" create chorus by pasting, "Alt-E" (unlock verse). 2 shortcuts more vs verse notes selection. I think a good deal.

@stevec: What you have revealed is that splitting midi clips does not divide the notes into two clips, as one might intuitively suppose. Both clips still contain all notes.
 
So if the user later manually adds a note nearby and Sonar extends the clip to fit the new note, old notes assumed to have been removed by splitting suddenly reappear.
 
To be safe it's best to copy a clip, remove unwanted notes from both clips, and only then resize as required.