Helpful ReplyHow midi clips actually work?

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williamcopper
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2016/02/12 12:03:44 (permalink)

How midi clips actually work?

Some discussion about the advisability of the "clip" notion for midi has surfaced here from time to time.  
 
As I look more carefully at how clips are made and altered by Sonar, things appear rather peculiar.   Observations welcome on these and other issues regarding midi channel and different types of midi events and different places for entry of the midi event (PRV, EL, Staff, etc). 
 
1)  how does entry of a midi event associated with a different midi channel affect a nearby or overlapping clip? 
 
2)  how does the beginning and end of a clip get extended by entry of a controller value before or after? 
 
Working on some screenshot to show how individual controllers entered into a track create single-event clips .. even when near other clips.  This is in part because of the uncontrolled way Sonar handles midi channels, I believe.
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williamcopper
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:09:05 (permalink)
Try this interesting experiment:   create a single controller message in a midi track.   Go to Event List, select the event.   Use "insert" to duplicate the event.    Modify the MBT time stamp for the duplicated event to be way far away from the original time stamp.    Look in track view at the gigantic two-event "Clip" that has been made. 
 
NOW!   Undo.    
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brundlefly
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:24:01 (permalink)
New MIDI Events will go into existing clips if they're within a measure of the nearest event; otherwise a new clip is created. I'd have to double-check, but channel assignments generally don't matter in this regard, as the same clip can contain events on any channel. Also if you're working in a track with multiple lanes, you need to take some care because the PRV is not lane-aware, and new events will tend always to go into T1.

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Paul P
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:25:36 (permalink)
 
I just created a midi clip with three notes in it.  Then opened the prv and added a note quite a bit down the line.  A new clip is created for that note.  Add notes in between the two notes and, as long as the notes don't overlap (and always remaining within the first invocation of the prv), a new clip is created for each new note.  What's the logic behind that ?

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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:26:57 (permalink)
williamcopper
Try this interesting experiment:   create a single controller message in a midi track.   Go to Event List, select the event.   Use "insert" to duplicate the event.    Modify the MBT time stamp for the duplicated event to be way far away from the original time stamp.    Look in track view at the gigantic two-event "Clip" that has been made. 
 
NOW!   Undo.    

At the risk of helping you hijack another thread... I'm not seeing a problem whether I undo just the alteration of the second event's timestamp or also its insertion. What's the issue?
 
EDIT: Missed that the original post was also yours, so this was not a hijack.
 
 
post edited by brundlefly - 2016/02/12 17:54:32

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williamcopper
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:39:13 (permalink)
I may have been wrong about the UNDO, I can't duplicate it just now.   My observation was that the gigantic clip that was created by changing the location of a single event remained after the undo.    But the essential thing:  why should modifying the time stamp of an event create one kind of "clip" .. one stretching thousands of bars ... while entering the same event in a different way creates a different kind of "clip"  .. two tiny ones, side by side, or distant from each other by many bars.  
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azslow3
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:56:53 (permalink)
williamcopper
Try this interesting experiment:   create a single controller message in a midi track.   Go to Event List, select the event.   Use "insert" to duplicate the event.    Modify the MBT time stamp for the duplicated event to be way far away from the original time stamp.    Look in track view at the gigantic two-event "Clip" that has been made. 
 
NOW!   Undo.   

At the moment I can check with X2a only.
 
Second event goes to the same clip, since it is "near" the first one. Then you "move it". Since it is already in the same clip, the clip is extended. Undo works as expected for me.
 
 

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brundlefly
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 12:57:06 (permalink)
williamcopper
..why should modifying the time stamp of an event create one kind of "clip"... while entering the same event in a different way creates a different kind of "clip"

Because moving an event is different from inserting an event. Moving extends a clip and inserting far away creates a new clip.
 
Incidentally, I would not have been greatly surprised if Undo hadn't trimmed the clip; I have run into that before. Yes, I would agree it's a bug when it happens. But no big deal - apply trimming, done.

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williamcopper
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 13:47:53 (permalink)
brundlefly
 moving an event is different from inserting an event. Moving extends a clip and inserting far away creates a new clip.




That is one of those things that sound right, but isn't quite:   one of the fastest ways to create individual non-note midi events (to "Insert" such an event)  is to duplicate an existing one in Event List and then place it at the right spot by Measure:Beat:Tick. 
 
I'm sure someone will now come along and say, "see, you do things in such strange ways it's no wonder you happen upon problems..."
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Paul P
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 14:03:19 (permalink)
 
Why is it that if I enter a long note which creates a long clip, then shorten the note, the clip is not also shortened ?
 
 

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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 14:31:36 (permalink)
Paul P
Why is it that if I enter a long note which creates a long clip, then shorten the note, the clip is not also shortened ?

I guess because the code looks like:
if(Note.begin+Note.duration > Note.Clip.End)
  Note.Clip.End = Note.begin+Note.duration
without check for the last note ends before the clip end

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John
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 15:03:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/02/12 15:45:59
Is there some purpose for this thread? 

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slartabartfast
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 15:46:56 (permalink)
Yes.
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 16:19:03 (permalink)
Funny but not very helpful Slartabartfast. I ask thinking about the way it used to be before MIDI and Cakewalk. I remember when MIDI came to be and what hoops we had to go through to get it to interface with a computer. No USB. We used parallel ports which meant configuration of the port and the driver. A mistake here meant no connection.
 
A MIDI clip? What is that? A MIDI grove clip totally non-existent.  Now we have MIDI tracks with virtual instruments playing within a DAW able to record the MIDI and also turn it into audio. In the past one needed a hardware synth to turn MIDI into audio. The luxury of Sonar seems wasted on a few. Unless a real problem is found where one simply can't work I suggest getting over these nit picking issues. Do some composing and be thankful you don't have to do it with a pen made out of a feather. 
 
I think one needs to put things into perspective.  

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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 16:44:17 (permalink)
Thanks for your perspective, John.   To answer your question, why mention it?   Because just in case CW is going to actually improve their handling of midi, this 'clip' issue will likely prove to be central.    Did anyone think there would be tens of thousands of clips in a project?  Very unlikely.    Credit to CW -- at least Sonar survives, up until it crashes, with such large numbers. 
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 16:55:59 (permalink)
John
Funny but not very helpful Slartabartfast. I ask thinking about the way it used to be before MIDI and Cakewalk. I remember when MIDI came to be and what hoops we had to go through to get it to interface with a computer. No USB. We used parallel ports which meant configuration of the port and the driver. A mistake here meant no connection.
 
A MIDI clip? What is that? A MIDI grove clip totally non-existent.  Now we have MIDI tracks with virtual instruments playing within a DAW able to record the MIDI and also turn it into audio. In the past one needed a hardware synth to turn MIDI into audio. The luxury of Sonar seems wasted on a few. Unless a real problem is found where one simply can't work I suggest getting over these nit picking issues. Do some composing and be thankful you don't have to do it with a pen made out of a feather. 
 
I think one needs to put things into perspective.  



John, the purpose of this thread is not to criticize how your beloved Sonar handles MIDI in general, and certainly not to somehow say that Sonar's MIDI handling is not an improvement over the dark days of prehistory when dragons roamed the Earth. It is to clarify in the questioner's mind how Sonar will actually respond to what he is trying to do with MIDI. In that sense it is no more pointless than thousands of other threads in this forum. Seeing a false comparison or criticism of Sonar in a simple question should prompt you to reevaluate your emotional relationship with the application. It is just a computer program after all, and you are just a particularly knowledgeable user and generally a respected and helpful contributor to this forum. 
 
Is that helpful?
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John
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 17:23:03 (permalink)
slartabartfast
John
Funny but not very helpful Slartabartfast. I ask thinking about the way it used to be before MIDI and Cakewalk. I remember when MIDI came to be and what hoops we had to go through to get it to interface with a computer. No USB. We used parallel ports which meant configuration of the port and the driver. A mistake here meant no connection.
 
A MIDI clip? What is that? A MIDI grove clip totally non-existent.  Now we have MIDI tracks with virtual instruments playing within a DAW able to record the MIDI and also turn it into audio. In the past one needed a hardware synth to turn MIDI into audio. The luxury of Sonar seems wasted on a few. Unless a real problem is found where one simply can't work I suggest getting over these nit picking issues. Do some composing and be thankful you don't have to do it with a pen made out of a feather. 
 
I think one needs to put things into perspective.  



John, the purpose of this thread is not to criticize how your beloved Sonar handles MIDI in general, and certainly not to somehow say that Sonar's MIDI handling is not an improvement over the dark days of prehistory when dragons roamed the Earth. It is to clarify in the questioner's mind how Sonar will actually respond to what he is trying to do with MIDI. In that sense it is no more pointless than thousands of other threads in this forum. Seeing a false comparison or criticism of Sonar in a simple question should prompt you to reevaluate your emotional relationship with the application. It is just a computer program after all, and you are just a particularly knowledgeable user and generally a respected and helpful contributor to this forum. 
 
Is that helpful?


You misunderstand me. True, I like Sonar but I have no emotional attachment to it. Not only do have Sonar but other DAWs as well. None of them are objects of emotional attachment. 
 
What a users does is find how to get a job done not spend their time and others finding fault or commenting on non issues.
 
I still don't know why this thread was started. You're not apparently looking for a feature request or a bug fix or even help in understanding a feature. So my question remains open what is the purpose of the this thread? 
 
If its just a general discussion with no purpose as such perhaps it belongs in the Coffee House? 

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John
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Paul P
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 17:41:38 (permalink)
John
If its just a general discussion with no purpose as such perhaps it belongs in the Coffee House? 



Sorry John, I don't see how a discussion on how midi is handled in Sonar could merit banishment to the Coffee House.
Reading this thread I've learned a bunch of things about how midi is processed in Sonar that I didn't know before.

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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 18:04:46 (permalink)
I think lately willie's been trying and this question/thread is IMO appropriate. Defined and coherant questions that seem to serve an educational purpose. Polite responses/followups. I applaud that.
 
OP has had a bit of a past of crying wolf and being a bit infuriating though so there may be a bit of frustration on John's part.
 
I know OP has certainly made me pop a couple times.
 
Didn't even want to post in here but yeah, credit where credit is due and a bit of understanding for the guy who's had to deal with the aftermath of a LOT of dumb/annoying threads.
 
Back on topic...
 
cya
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John
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 18:21:03 (permalink)
Paul P
John
If its just a general discussion with no purpose as such perhaps it belongs in the Coffee House? 



Sorry John, I don't see how a discussion on how midi is handled in Sonar could merit banishment to the Coffee House.
Reading this thread I've learned a bunch of things about how midi is processed in Sonar that I didn't know before.


OK if this is what the members think and I have reason to believe it is I will back off and not comment in this thread further.
I also appreciate the willingness to speak out if things seem unfair. That is very helpful to me. Thank you.  

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John
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 18:25:37 (permalink)
Re-thinking of MIDI is a good thing. MIDI was invented over 30 years ago for hardware synthesizers. There was no way the originators could have predicted USB MIDI, let alone Bluetooth MIDI or 2.67 billion devices incorporating MIDI by the end of this year. In fact MIDI seemed like it was going to become solely a control medium after ADAT came out, and digital audio became affordable. VST came along that used MIDI but the original virtual instruments were so unresponsive they were more of a curiosity than anything else.
 
Then computer power increased exponentially, and people could no longer find vintage harwdare synthesizers. Virtual instruments started doing emulations, and that was their cue to come back into vogue (rhymes with "Moog"). When instruments like Kontakt came along that beat the living crap out of systems but the computers could actually cope, MIDI became super-relevant again.
 
While some DAWs have appended MIDI features, like what Cubase has done with expression, all DAWs -- not just SONAR -- need to consider the implications of how computers, virtual instruments, and control affect workflow with MIDI. We're not just sending MIDI data via an output port to a piece of hardware.
 
If all this thread does is point fingers at problems, real or especially imagined, and opine that Cakewalk's engineers are dysfunctional idiots who probably can't tie their shoelaces without help, it won't contribute any more than previous threads with a similar theme. But if it makes an actual attempt to analyze workflow and come up with solutions on how best to handle MIDI in the 21st century, then it will definitely have value. Of course as with all re-assessments of workflow, it's essential to take into account a multiplicity of applications, as well as the Law of Unintended Consequences.  
 
Should MIDI clips be like audio clips, in that they stake out a claim on a certain space on the timeline, and silence is treated the same as audio silence? Is lack of data the MIDI equivalent of silence? Should clips shorten automatically if data is removed, or retain their space on the timeline? How do you handle parallel streams of data? Should MIDI clips incorporate clip automation like audio, automation controllers in lanes or tracks, or graphical editing in strips? Or all three? And if all three, how would you display them? The solutions to these questions may appear easy, but they're not...

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williamcopper
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:09:46 (permalink)
brundlefly
New MIDI Events will go into existing clips if they're within a measure of the nearest event; otherwise a new clip is created.



FYI, this is no longer true; not sure if it ever was that simple.  
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williamcopper
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:17:54 (permalink)
Here is an illustration of three different clips, the one on the left created first, then the one on the right, then the one in the middle.    Within.   No merging of clips happened.    You can also see the odd way selection is highlighted -- it happens that the middle two notes selected are one clip, with the outer two notes part of two different clips. 
 
This is not a staged picture -- this is very simply how clips get multiplied by note entry in PRV.  

 
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williamcopper
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:43:46 (permalink)
A bit more unusual info:   if you simply keep clicking notes into a clip from PRV, yes the clip expands if the notes are close.   But if you do something very typical like select, copy, and paste a small group of notes into place, exactly where you would have clicked a new note,  then 1) a new clip is created and 2) the user interface goes peculiar immediately.  You cannot, for instance, go over to track view and select a clip with the smart tool -- not sure if this is always or only a sign that sonar is getting overrun with clips and signalling a fail to come soon. 
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azslow3
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:49:42 (permalink)
williamcopper
brundlefly
New MIDI Events will go into existing clips if they're within a measure of the nearest event; otherwise a new clip is created.

FYI, this is no longer true; not sure if it ever was that simple. 

Still works for me, I do not remember cases when I hit other behavior.


John
Is there some purpose for this thread?

Such question sounds provoking to me. The thread was kept on topic before. The origin of this thread is may be hard to understand without reading http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3345794 (at least the second page). There is an "inconvenience", people trying to understand the situation / find workarounds / may be crystallize future requests.
 
Anderton
If all this thread does is point fingers at problems, real or especially imagined, and opine that Cakewalk's engineers are dysfunctional idiots who probably can't tie their shoelaces without help, it won't contribute any more than previous threads with a similar theme. But if it makes an actual attempt to analyze workflow and come up with solutions on how best to handle MIDI in the 21st century, then it will definitely have value. Of course as with all re-assessments of workflow, it's essential to take into account a multiplicity of applications, as well as the Law of Unintended Consequences.  

In the link I have mentioned you can find why these two threads exists. It was not clear for me either.
 
Just imagine you record your guitar and let say every 5-10 seconds recorded audio goes into different clip or take lane. You then merge all recorded clips, bounce them. And so every day, many times per day. Probably at some point you will start to ask what is going on. Is there something wrong with your settings or workflow? Is there some way to avoid that? This topic is about such behavior which exist in Sonar for MIDI recording, if you use williamcoppers composing approach. I believe the situation can be improved without workflow changes. If small additions can significantly simplify life for someone, why not discuss that?

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azslow3
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:52:01 (permalink)
williamcopper
But if you do something very typical like select, copy, and paste a small group of notes into place, exactly where you would have clicked a new note,  then 1) a new clip is created

You can till some degree control that using "Paste special..." parameters. Note that once set there, "normal" Paste will also do the same.

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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:54:51 (permalink)
I have already commented in another thread that it is unclear, while in PRV, which clip (if any) you're editing. I find this thread and its musings very relevant. I'm always mystified by the way Sonar organizes and creates midi clips. About the only thing that always goes as expected is a linear recording from my midi controller. I cope by merging and trimming manually but I'd love a better workflow. 
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 19:58:14 (permalink)
Thank you, aslow, true what you say and I had never realized that --- using paste special once, setting the option under Advanced to "Paste into Existing Clips" does in fact affect how normal paste works thereafter, and then a paste of notes within a bar of an existing clip seems to work as said earlier by Brundlefly.   
 
Good to know, though not sure it's a great idea to have a modification of one action be hidden within a different action's parameters!   
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azslow3
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 20:37:59 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
I have already commented in another thread that it is unclear, while in PRV, which clip (if any) you're editing.

Russian language has much more words then English to describe the result after moving notes in some clip you do now want to change, while editing overlapped clips or clips on different tracks...
In such cases I usually prefer to do an extra step and lock every I do not want to modify. In case of multitrack, "Lock"/"Show" buttons and colors are handy. For overlapped clips I lock clips in question.
 
williamcopper
Good to know, though not sure it's a great idea to have a modification of one action be hidden within a different action's parameters!

You should try Autodesk Animator (DOS version, it is free now). Once you used to set options is 2-3 different menus just to change the behavior of one "tool", "Paste" and "Paste special..." will no longer look like different actions
 

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#29
ampfixer
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Re: How midi clips actually work? 2016/02/12 21:27:22 (permalink)
MIDI clips have driven me nuts on many occasions. Two clips touch each other and suddenly there's clips created in take lanes. My solution so far is telling Sonar not to be so smart and let me do the thinking. Mind you, that's only because I've not spent enough time with modern MIDI to understand what it's about. When there was only 1 stream of 16 channels it was easy. The MIDI cable plugged into my computer and no interface was required. Basic and simple. There were no clips, it was just a track that you sprinkled notes into and moved them around until things were right. Sometimes Sonar is too smart for me.

Regards, John 
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#30
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