Basic Question I should Have Known Years Ago

When setting up a vsti, like Garritan's Aria Player, or East West's Play, I have tended to use just the first putput. (Excuse me, that should be output - sometimes spell-check mistakes are just too funny to delete). Now, after all these years, it dawned on me that this might not be a good idea. Like maybe the sounds get too intermixed and create mud, which I admit my pieces have too much of. So, should I be using more of the outputs, in the hope of producing a better mix? I know this is really basic, but sometimes we develop habits that we never question, until one day an epiphany occurs (didn't need spell-check for that one - I used to be a poet). Like, for example, it suddenly occurred to me that the reason why East West S-O basses cause my Sonar to crash, is because they are on the same putout (there I go again) as a bunch of other instruments, and maybe this problem would go away if I  gave them their own outlet (I'm just going to stay away from that word, I can't type it for the life of me).  So, any thoughts? Please try to resist the urge to express shock that I don't know this by now.

The benefits of using multi outputs is that you can mix those "voices/channels/etc" inside Sonar instead of inside the plugin. That means you can use the faders inside Sonar on each part and add Sonar FX (or any other FX you have installed) on the individual parts.
 
So that gives you some extra control over the individual sounds BUT if you are merely using the raw sounds inside the plug and it has it's own internal mixer then that stereo out essentially just acts like a bus (so like if you took all those multi output channels then sent them to a bus it's essentially the same thing).
 
Essentially if you do not intend to add any Sonar or third party effects and your plugin has an internal mixer that you are comfortable working with (instead of doing the mix in Sonar instead) then your single stereo output merely acts like a bus. This could be much simpler if you don't need all that extra control.
 
As far as crashes? I seriously doubt using multi output to individual channels in Sonar would minimize that. If anything the extra tracks would increase the resource consumption of the project (especially if you start adding effects).
 
I personally always use multi outs on my drums and other such instruments because I prefer mixing in Sonar and having the option to have the Prochannel strip/FX rack available but it all gets dumped down to a bus anyway so if those weren't factors I could very happily just use a single stereo out.
 
I hope that makes sense. Definitely play around with it though to see whether the multi out option works better for you.
 
Cheers.

michael diemer
...until one day an epiphany...

 
Gesundheit.

michael diemer
 ...the reason why East West S-O basses cause my Sonar to crash, is because they are on the same putout (there I go again) as a bunch of other instruments, and maybe this problem would go away if I  gave them their own outlet

No. If your East West S-Ob's are crashing Sonar, there is no way this is the cause.

Always better to put instruments within one vsti on separate outputs. Maybe your spell- checker was encouraging that with the technical term putput ;-)

sharke
Another thing to consider is that maybe your CPU's cores will be used more efficiently by processing all of the tracks separately with their own effects as opposed to processing them with the VSTi's own onboard effects unit, which may or may not spike one of your cores. This is something I have noticed with Native Instrument's Drummer libraries - it has its own internal mixer with effects processing, but it tends to spike one of my cores like crazy if I use it. However I also have all of the effects it uses as separate VST's and if I route all of the drums to multiple outputs and process them separately using those same VST's, I don't get the spike. 

That's a very interesting tidbit, thanks. I sure wish there was a way for the collective knowledge that surfaces in the forum could be put into some kind of database, other than Google search of course...

MondoArt
I usually select the single output for VSTi's that are drumkits or have multiple instruments like orchestral plug-ins. Then come time to mix, I solo each drum/instrument in the plug-in and bounce it down to an audio track. I like seeing the waveforms while I mix. I know there's a waveform preview for the multi-out VSTi tracks, but I prefer the audio track. It's a little more work, though, for sure.

That has to be the most tedious way of doing this ever. Highly creative but tedious. I see no purpose in it other than for people who like to watch grass grow.  
 
One thing to think about is the sound is different when one uses multiple outs rather than piling all of them onto one single track. With Mix Recall try it and see if there is a difference. 

John

MondoArt
I usually select the single output for VSTi's that are drumkits or have multiple instruments like orchestral plug-ins. Then come time to mix, I solo each drum/instrument in the plug-in and bounce it down to an audio track. I like seeing the waveforms while I mix. I know there's a waveform preview for the multi-out VSTi tracks, but I prefer the audio track. It's a little more work, though, for sure.

That has to be the most tedious way of doing this ever. Highly creative but tedious. I see no purpose in it other than for people who like to watch grass grow.  

 
Remember that a recent update added an export clips option, and you can export tracks. So it's much simpler to do than it used to be.
 

Beepster
The benefits of using multi outputs is that you can mix those "voices/channels/etc" inside Sonar instead of inside the plugin. That means you can use the faders inside Sonar on each part and add Sonar FX (or any other FX you have installed) on the individual parts.
 
So that gives you some extra control over the individual sounds BUT if you are merely using the raw sounds inside the plug and it has it's own internal mixer then that stereo out essentially just acts like a bus (so like if you took all those multi output channels then sent them to a bus it's essentially the same thing).
 
Essentially if you do not intend to add any Sonar or third party effects and your plugin has an internal mixer that you are comfortable working with (instead of doing the mix in Sonar instead) then your single stereo output merely acts like a bus. This could be much simpler if you don't need all that extra control.
 
As far as crashes? I seriously doubt using multi output to individual channels in Sonar would minimize that. If anything the extra tracks would increase the resource consumption of the project (especially if you start adding effects).
 
 
 
I personally always use multi outs on my drums and other such instruments because I prefer mixing in Sonar and having the option to have the Prochannel strip/FX rack available but it all gets dumped down to a bus anyway so if those weren't factors I could very happily just use a single stereo out.
 
I hope that makes sense. Definitely play around with it though to see whether the multi out option works better for you.
 
Cheers.

Thanks for that great information! What I've been doing is a kind of hybrid thing. I will sometimes use the native reverb on Play, for example, controlling it with the slider in Sonar. Sometimes I don't, and send the synth whole hog to Spaces reverb. With Aria, I use the native verb AND send it to Spaces. It seems to me that my music sounds better if I put an instance of Spaces directly on each synth, as opposed to sending them to a bus. And of course with the latter you can just send it, or send it as a configured signal. With multiple outs, you can really adjust the verb as fine as you want it. I have found I do it differently on different pieces. Not just randomly, but because it sounds best one way on this piece; another way on that, etc. I guess it's one of those "there are many ways to do it" things.

sharke
Yes so much more flexibility to be had from using multiple outputs, especially in terms of being able to clean up the mud you're referring to. And creating depth. 
 
Another thing to consider is that maybe your CPU's cores will be used more efficiently by processing all of the tracks separately with their own effects as opposed to processing them with the VSTi's own onboard effects unit, which may or may not spike one of your cores. This is something I have noticed with Native Instrument's Drummer libraries - it has its own internal mixer with effects processing, but it tends to spike one of my cores like crazy if I use it. However I also have all of the effects it uses as separate VST's and if I route all of the drums to multiple outputs and process them separately using those same VST's, I don't get the spike. 

Yes, I have found that using the native reverb on Play causes me problems on my old "demo" computer, the one I'm using to preview Reaper and Sonar Pro. I only have 6 gigs of Ram on it, and an AMD dual core. I can get away with it on my primo machine. I recall that the East West forum had a big discussion about this. They are really into power using there. They have to be, to run that stuff!

MondoArt
I usually select the single output for VSTi's that are drumkits or have multiple instruments like orchestral plug-ins. Then come time to mix, I solo each drum/instrument in the plug-in and bounce it down to an audio track. I like seeing the waveforms while I mix. I know there's a waveform preview for the multi-out VSTi tracks, but I prefer the audio track. It's a little more work, though, for sure.

I have heard of folks doing that. Randy who used to do the Northern Sounds forum was a big advocate of that. I'm probably not yet sophisticated enough for that level of control.