mikebeam
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Allegro...
I've been getting into EW's composer cloud - this is my first composition with the entire Orchestra. I haven't written a lot with Woodwinds - I think I did a nice job of writing for the orchestra as a whole and highlighting different instruments at different times... I'm curious to hear any feedback including arrangement, composition, mix, and reverb. I have a tendency to overdo it... But all comments are welcome!!! I struggle with Titles and am open to any suggestions. https://soundcloud.com/iambeam/allegro
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eph221
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/02 23:22:43
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Love it!
The only observations I have are on the mix, the composition is first rate.
Now remember: I have sh*tty speakers.
The horns at the beginning are too front and center, need to *sit* back in the mix a little more.
1:50-2:00 is the ping ponging thing. 3:00 the oboe or clarniet (couldn't even tell which) isn't loud enough. The ping ponging left right thing I didn't really like, although others might. It's kind of playful. The length is great, this would work nicely for TV or Film. They usually ask for 30 second versions of these things. Would you be able to do that? A trick I learned is to count backwards from the end for 30 seconds, and usually (not always) that gives a good version of it.
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mikebeam
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 08:11:58
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Thanks.
I see what you're saying about the horns at the beginning. I'll get in there and try to adjust.
The "ping ponging" thing came about kind of naturally - it wasn't my intention, I just wrote the different parts trying to have them go back and forth, but when I panned each instrument according to a reference chart I use, the ping pong thing came out... If I were to take that out, I'd have to have different instruments play the different parts or adjust panning in odd ways. I think I like it - but if this WERE to be used in TV/Film - I could see how it might be a problem. But as a stand alone song - I think it's kind of interesting... I guess... Curious to see if others feel the same way...
At 3:00 - I really struggled with that! It's a Clarinet AND an Oboe. Originally, I wanted it to be just Clarinet, but I couldn't get it loud enough. Even when I lowered the other strings. I have the Expression and Velocity of the instruments cranked... I'm wondering if I could try a different articulation or something... Basically, I agree, I'm just not sure what to do about it... I hate to start adding compression and everything...
Really appreciate the feedback!
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dcumpian
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 08:58:04
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Larry does have a good point, but it does work for this song. Nice composition overall and I think your mix is quite good, though I found the low end to be a bit lacking.
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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mikebeam
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 09:26:40
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Thanks. Larry - I actually modulate through 3 different keys - and ended back where I started. Part of me was worried that I overdid it...
Yeah - lots of staccato! I might sit on it for awhile then go back in and add some legato sustained material... I think it works as is - but, it definitely is pretty one-dimensional...
@Dan - how would you suggest I fix the Low End? Do you think an EQ adjustment would be sufficient or are you saying that the instruments on the low end should be louder in the mix?
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eph221
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 10:34:23
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Mike,
I think you identified why the ping ponging was disconcerting to me...Did you mean for the horns to be on the left? (my rca connections might be wrong). Horns should be front right to me.
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Wookiee
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 10:51:18
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Works for me here, though do I detect some hard left and right panning of some of the instruments? if so I would just ease that off a little say a max of 80% either way.
Thanks for sharing.
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dcumpian
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 11:29:15
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mikebeam
Thanks. Larry - I actually modulate through 3 different keys - and ended back where I started. Part of me was worried that I overdid it...
Yeah - lots of staccato! I might sit on it for awhile then go back in and add some legato sustained material... I think it works as is - but, it definitely is pretty one-dimensional...
@Dan - how would you suggest I fix the Low End? Do you think an EQ adjustment would be sufficient or are you saying that the instruments on the low end should be louder in the mix?
I'd ask the question a different way: Have you added any basses and cellos? If so, then it's an EQ problem. If not, well, you have your answer.  Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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mikebeam
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 12:43:34
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I used this chart for panning - http://www.shanescott.com/orchestra-panning-guide-for-producers-and-mix-engineers/#.Vth2VZMrJZ0 I'm not in front of the project at the moment so I'll go back and make sure I did everything correctly. My intention is to pan the French Horn left at about 25%, Trumpets Right 9%, Trombones Right about 25%. I'm pretty sure that I didn't pan anything more than 82%. But as I'm writing this... I'm wondering if the EWQL engine had the instruments panned and then I panned them additionally in Sonar. I'll go back and take another look later today. What do you think about the reference chart? Does that look right to you guys? dcumpian
I'd ask the question a different way: Have you added any basses and cellos? If so, then it's an EQ problem. If not, well, you have your answer.
Yeah - that's kind of what I meant. There are basses and cellos, but would you suggest that I just increase the volume of those instruments or put an EQ on the master bus?
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eph221
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 12:59:41
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that chart is right for the romantic period, which is what most people are used to. The arrangement of the horns can vary; it's not as strict (it seems) as the strings. So, do whatever sounds right to you, however the horns should be more centered in your mix, you're correct. Most conductors put the timpani center left..
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mcourter
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 13:26:28
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I think it's a blast, but to my tinnitic ears the whole thing could use a treble boost. The highs aren't as crisp and clear as I'd like. But otherwise it's a fun composition.
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dcumpian
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 13:35:48
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mikebeam
I used this chart for panning - http://www.shanescott.com/orchestra-panning-guide-for-producers-and-mix-engineers/#.Vth2VZMrJZ0
I'm not in front of the project at the moment so I'll go back and make sure I did everything correctly. My intention is to pan the French Horn left at about 25%, Trumpets Right 9%, Trombones Right about 25%. I'm pretty sure that I didn't pan anything more than 82%.
But as I'm writing this... I'm wondering if the EWQL engine had the instruments panned and then I panned them additionally in Sonar. I'll go back and take another look later today. What do you think about the reference chart? Does that look right to you guys?
dcumpian
I'd ask the question a different way: Have you added any basses and cellos? If so, then it's an EQ problem. If not, well, you have your answer.
Yeah - that's kind of what I meant. There are basses and cellos, but would you suggest that I just increase the volume of those instruments or put an EQ on the master bus?
I try to avoid EQ on the master until I am finalizing a mix. I'd say you may need to revisit the tracks that represent your low/low mid notes and check their levels. Also check any EQ on those tracks to ensure you aren't filtering out any frequencies you should be keeping. To me, it's a mix problem that a simple EQ on the master isn't going to fix. As far as the most recent comment from Mark, that can certainly be addressed at the mastering stage. I would not suggest trying to brighten those tracks too much or you will end up with a very brittle-sounding mix once you get to the mastering stage. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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stevec
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 15:05:57
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Nothing to add to the above regarding the mix... But I liked the piece! Even the ping-pong/panned parts, I thought they were actually kinda cool, like new-skool orchestral or somethin'. 
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mikebeam
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 16:28:49
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Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the positive comments and feedback... I went in and made some adjustments - turns out the horns were panned a little too far left. BTW (It's totally awesome that you guys can catch over-panning by 10% - awesome!) I've also brought up the volume of the low end instruments almost throughout which I think added some nice dynamics. I also tried a new articulation on the Clarinet legato section that I think cuts through much better. https://soundcloud.com/iambeam/allegro-1 I left the other one up there too for the time being so you could A/B the both of them - I think it sounds MUCH better... Overall each of those changes had a pretty big cumulative effect...
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eph221
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 16:36:28
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Really nice composition. Send it in for the new Harry Potter movie. You'll get a grammy.
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Leizer
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/03 17:54:17
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I love it musically! Sometimes it sounds like the strings and trumpets are stumbling on their notes. I have this problem myself, and haven't a good solution. I avoid to mess with the velocity too much and makes most dynamic changes by expression. And maybe a tiny reverb on the master to bind it together more? Great work, love to hear more of this!
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mikebeam
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Re: Allegro...
2016/03/04 07:57:04
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Thanks. I'm always a bit wary of adding too much reverb. I already have some on the master bus... I could spend a lifetime playing with reverb settings, changing it depending on my mood of the moment.... I think I'm pretty satisfied with it - my brain has already moved on to writing my next project... 
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