Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago

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michael diemer
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2016/03/03 14:04:33 (permalink)

Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago

CC 1. CC 7. CC 11. I know that 1 is the mod wheel, 7 is volume, and 11 is fine-tuning-the-volume. But I have never really understood when and how to use them. I mostly use only 7 and 11. But it occurred to me recently that if I put in a CC 1 in event list at the start, my Aria insts have more volume. If I don't do this, some of them go dead, I can't hear them when playing my midi controller (which has no mod-wheel. I'm going to upgrade this). The Project Sam insts especially do this. OK, good, but what do I set CC 1 at? 64? 100? 127? And then, how do I use CC 7? I was putting CC 7 in at the start, usually at 100. Then I adjusted volume on the fly with CC 11. Should I be using all three, since my midi controller has no mod-wheel? Should I just get a new midi controller, and if so, will all this stuff be clearer?

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    rivers88
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/03 14:19:59 (permalink)
    Implementation of CC1 (mod wheel) and CC11 (expression) can vary greatly between instruments.
    While it does seem that CC11 does commonly affect volume / velocity levels, I don't think that is a common use for CC1, at least not with the plugins I'm most familiar with.

    So, adding CC1 to a track might work well for some instruments, but not necessarily all.
    And FWIW, I would definitely recommend upgrading to a MIDI keyboard controller that has mod wheel AND after touch ~
    The difference it makes with your plugins and some external synths can be fairly dramatic!
    post edited by rivers88 - 2016/03/03 15:25:36
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    Anderton
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/03 16:02:28 (permalink)
    Aria uses CC1 extensively, unlike many synths that use it solely for vibrato. It expects you to work the CC1 mod wheel for expressiveness, and yes, turning it "down" can affect level on many patches.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    michael diemer
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/03 17:43:16 (permalink)
    rivers88
    Implementation of CC1 (mod wheel) and CC11 (expression) can vary greatly between instruments.
    While it does seem that CC11 does commonly affect volume / velocity levels, I don't think that is a common use for CC1, at least not with the plugins I'm most familiar with.

    So, adding CC1 to a track might work well for some instruments, but not necessarily all.
    And FWIW, I would definitely recommend upgrading to a MIDI keyboard controller that has mod wheel AND after touch ~
    The difference it makes with your plugins and some external synths can be fairly dramatic!

    Thanks! I agree, I really need to upgrade my midi keyboard. In Aria, CC 1 seems to be the same as CC 7. IO can't find any difference. They both affect the base volume level.

    michael diemer
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    michael diemer
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/03 17:45:36 (permalink)
    Anderton
    Aria uses CC1 extensively, unlike many synths that use it solely for vibrato. It expects you to work the CC1 mod wheel for expressiveness, and yes, turning it "down" can affect level on many patches.


    Thanks Craig. One reason no doubt that my music lacks expression. Some of the Aria patches are super loud, I've found I have to really lower that base volume level. And CC 1 seems to work as well as CC 7. I've been comparing, not any difference AFAICT.
     

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/03 18:39:24 (permalink)
    FWIW, I don't know how universal this is but CC#11 is also labeled "expression" and basically lets you ride volume (and sometimes filter or something else) between zero and the actual midi volume (CC#7). Think of it as playing a guitar through a volume pedal and an amp. CC#7 is the amp volume, CC#11 the volume pedal. When you fully open your volume pedal, you get the level you set your amp at, and you can go down to zero by moving the pedal.

    Perhaps CC1 is supposed to have this same function in Aria?
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    ESharpe
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/04 16:43:08 (permalink)
    You did not state what libraries you are using with the Aria player. 
     
    The Garritan libraries  use CC1 as for volume for sustaining instruments; like bowed strings, woodwinds, brass.  Thus you can use CC1 to create crescendos and diminuendos and  to impart expressiveness with variations in volume of both sustained tones and phrases.  Velocity is used for attack the note, so you have have like  a soft (low volume) note with a string attack (just one example).  
     
    Velocity is used for volume and tone  for most percussive instruments; like drums, plucked strings, piano, guitar.  
     
    The sustain pedal is used to implement legato in sustaining  instruments; like bowed strings, woodwinds, brass. 
     
    Looking at the JABB manual it looks like you can use either CC1, CC2 or CC11 for volume/timbre but you should use only one of them.
     
     
    note:  cc2 is breath control 
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    Sidroe
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/04 20:52:54 (permalink)
    Simply put, in the Aria Player Mixer View you will see the following:
    Control 7 moves the individual instrument channel sliders for  mixer Volume Control. This is the same as setting the Mixer Volumes.
    Control 1 controls the Modulation Wheel. You can see the Mod Wheel at the left end of the keyboard on the Aria Player Mixer screen move as you move your mod wheel up and down.
    Control 11 is the same as Control 1 but you can assign control 11 to let's say an expression pedal for operation with your foot. The same as a volume pedal.
    Aria is hard-wired to your Mod wheel for controlling volume.
    In Sonar I set the midi channel Volume to the loudest mix level I want that instrument at. I then turn on the Automation Lane for that channel and set it up for Control 1 or 11. The automation lane is where I do my actual mix moves for that channel. In other words, The Channel Volume in the midi part is like a Master Volume, set it and forget it. Now when I do my expression adjustments they are done in the Automation Lane.
    I learned a long time ago that most DAWs use control 7 for channel volumes and 11 for expression. Working the way I just described will save you some headaches if you move between DAWs to work on the same project.
    If you mix using control 7 only, there's going to be a good chance that you'll have to re-mix just about every track!!!
    But, if you use control 7 for your channel volume and use control 11 for your mix moves when you import in to another DAW you will PROBABLY only have to change Control 7 because your mix moves are all separate and still there! In would rather have to just turn the track up louder or softer and keep my mix than have to edit the WHOLE track over.
    If your a guitar player or do any mixing at all it's easy to look at it this way. Control 7 is the volume on your amp, set it and forget it. Control 11 or for Aria, control 1 is the volume on your instrument that you turn up and down as you play to blend in the mix.
    I didn't mean to get long winded about this but it is quite confusing dealing with Garritan and these controller numbers. I hope this helps you to think of it in simpler terms. Good luck!!

    Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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    michael diemer
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/04 21:28:22 (permalink)
    Thanks very much Sid for that excellent info. As it turns out, I have been 7-11-ing it for years now. As you say, using 11 preserves the relative mix volumes if you move between DAWS (or even different versions of the same one). Another thing I picked up is that 91 is reverb. You can control it with the purple slider in Sonar 8.5. or with a cc event in presumably all DAWS, since 91 seems to be a universal reverb control. It works in Reaper, for example. So yeah, like you I have been making an initial setting of overall volume using 7. On Garritan/Aria, I have always found that the flute, bassoon, and clarinet are much louder than the rest. I have to set them as low as 40 or 50 sometimes, to balance out with the other insts. So, I guess I will continue to ignore cc1, it appears to be interchangeable with cc7. 

    michael diemer
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    michael diemer
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/04 21:34:04 (permalink)
    ESharpe
    You did not state what libraries you are using with the Aria player. 
     
    The Garritan libraries  use CC1 as for volume for sustaining instruments; like bowed strings, woodwinds, brass.  Thus you can use CC1 to create crescendos and diminuendos and  to impart expressiveness with variations in volume of both sustained tones and phrases.  Velocity is used for attack the note, so you have have like  a soft (low volume) note with a string attack (just one example).  
     
    Velocity is used for volume and tone  for most percussive instruments; like drums, plucked strings, piano, guitar.  
     
    The sustain pedal is used to implement legato in sustaining  instruments; like bowed strings, woodwinds, brass. 
     
    Looking at the JABB manual it looks like you can use either CC1, CC2 or CC11 for volume/timbre but you should use only one of them.
     
     
    note:  cc2 is breath control 
     
     




     
    ESharpe: I use the Aria with Garritan (now version 5). On the rare occasions that I do crescendos, I draw them in - somehow; I can't remember at the moment how, exactly. Another reason my music lacks expression. But hey, when you're a Baroque Impressionist, that's what you do. (What is Baroque Impressionism? A term I made up to cover my ass because my music lacks expression).

    michael diemer
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    Sidroe
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/05 09:21:24 (permalink)
    Michael, control 1 is actually control 11!  Control 7 is the channels mixer control. I see where you are using 8.5. I am on Platinum. If I remember correctly, 8.5 does not have automation lanes. I think that may be some confusing communication between us.

    Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
    #11
    michael diemer
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/05 13:14:48 (permalink)
    Aha! 

    michael diemer
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    konradh
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    Re: Another Thing I Should Have Known Years Ago 2016/03/05 17:48:44 (permalink)
    Some software libraries (esp EastWest) use controllers in odd ways.  Hollywood Strings doesn't even use the controllers the same way for every patch.
     
    Regarding 7 and 11, while I don't do this, many people use 11 for volume changes throughout a song and use 7 to set overall volume.  The thinking is that if they want the whole track to be louder or software, they can just change controller 7 in one place without messing up all the swells and fades.
     
    I personally never use 11.

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