Helpful Replyvocal effects?

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Agentcalm
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2016/03/17 14:39:32 (permalink)

vocal effects?

Im not sure exactly what I'm looking for guys or if it even exists.  I dont have any backing singers so do all the stuff myself.  Taxi screeners have advised me to either try learn to sing my backing vocals on maybe the third note or fifth instead of singing in the same pitch as the main vocal.   I can see where they are coming from.  There is no difference in the main vocal and the backing cause its the same feller...me.    I cant seem to sing on that 3rd or 5th note though.
Is pitch shifting the only option?  Someone told me pitch shifting can sound very fake.  Is there anything can be used to add an effect to your backing vocal to make it sound like it was in a different pitch.   Or is that exactly what a pitch shifter is doing?  Thanks all.   

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Zargg
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 15:02:12 (permalink)
Hi. Which version of SONAR do you have? The later ones include V-Vocal (up til X3) and Melodyne (X3 and forwards), which allows you to do this pitch shifting, and is specially made for vocals. But I would try (if you have access to one of those) to sing as close as you can to 3rd or 5th, and use pitch correction after that to achieve more of a backing vocal feel. There are probably free ones you could try if you do not have neither. Others might have other ideas.
All the best.
Edit: To my knowledge, pitch correction does what the title says, and corrects / alters pitch. Some are better than others, and Melodyne seems to be up there with the best (if not the best).

Ken Nilsen
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 15:04:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/03/17 15:20:14
Try working out your harmonies with a VST synth. Then take out the root note, and sing along with just the harmony notes. You can track your harmonies using this technique, then just delete the synth when you're done tracking the vocals.
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Agentcalm
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 15:31:53 (permalink)
Hi Ken and Led
Thanks for the great tips.  I have X3 studio.  It's the very basic version of Sonar.  I'll look into the Melodyne.  I've only heard of it but no idea if its installed or what it does.  
 
Hey Led good idea.  I'll try sing along as you say with a synth or even a temp guitar riff starting on one of those notes.   I might mute the main vocal when doing this.  My own vocal is forcing me to sing the exact same pitch.
I take your point guys and I do agree with you.  If you can sing the vocal naturally it would be better. 
Thanks guys  :)
Xave

 Southern kin y'all 
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jpetersen
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 15:43:26 (permalink)
We are highly attuned to what the human voice sounds like, even being able to recognize someone by it. So yes, it quickly sound fake.
 
That said, if it's far back enough and there's a lot of other stuff going on, you can get away with it. What I find with Melodyne is that, if you shift a lot (a few tones) you get odd artifacts. But if it's pushed back, the character is still recognizable, so it will still sound like it's you singing.
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dannyjmusic
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 16:24:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/03/18 11:34:06
Hey Ken..
 if you are pitching songs to taxi, you might be better off not adding background vocals at all. It's better to leave something off if it doesn't make the song/track better.
I had a good friend that became a top producer in Nashville back in the 90's. He would put out the word for songs to all of Nashville, and have literally a garbage can full of cassette tapes to go through.
If the recording sounded amateurish in the 1st 15 seconds, he trashed it.
If you need background vocals, you might try Fiverr.com and get someone to record them for you cheap.
To practice for your own benefit, work on adding backgrounds to your songs, just don't use them in the final mix if they aren't good. Eventually you'll get better.
Sing along with records that have harmony, such as certain country songs or old Beatle songs...lots of good harmony there.
Also, keep in mind, a good background vocal is not always singing with the lead up a 3rd and 5th
There is an art to singing background vocals, and it takes a long time to learn how to do it well and create good background vocal parts for most people.
I have worked in the studio with singers that have had hit records, and some just couldn't sing background vocals at all...they were just used to singing with their feel, like behind the beat, and a little more loose.
Anyway...that's just my humble opinion,....hope it helps :)
 
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chuckebaby
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 16:29:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/03/18 11:34:25
Leadfoot
Try working out your harmonies with a VST synth. Then take out the root note, and sing along with just the harmony notes. You can track your harmonies using this technique, then just delete the synth when you're done tracking the vocals.

this is exactly what I was going to say.
its really not that hard and if you want to be a better singer, learn to sing your harmony's.
the 3rd + 5th are most popular.
get a synth and try your best to play your vocal part (the main melody)
then play the 5th note in the major scale to this synth line/record both lines.
practice this 5th melody, then sing it while listening to your main vox line.
 
you cant miss it man, when you hit the harmony correctly, something inside your brain kicks in(serotonin)
and the endorphins will let you know where to go from there
 
as funny as I made that just sound..i swear its true.
hit the harmony and you will feel it. it will also make you into a better singer.
by learning harmony's it forces you to become more accurate in your pitch.
 
now...where to place those harmony's in your song...that's a whole different talent.

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#7
Lynn
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/17 19:42:50 (permalink)
I have a friend that has a good voice but just can't sing harmony.  He always slips back into the lead melody after a line or two.  So, I had him learn the phrasing of the lead vocal to a T, then I muted the lead vocal and had him sing the harmony part as if it was the lead vocal.  He could do that just fine, and when I added the lead vocal back in, the two parts were in sync and in perfect harmony.  Anyone can do this if they have good timing and the song lends itself to this procedure.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 07:12:53 (permalink)
I write all my harmony parts out in advance using a piano vst
 
The different lines are on  separate Midi clips but each one is linked the vsti.
 
This way, all I have to do is mute the clips the vocalist does not want to hear and she can sing along to the "live" clip
 
 

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GregGraves
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 08:39:01 (permalink)
Taxi telling you to add harmonies seems a little odd.  I'd think you'd only add harmonies where harmonies were required by the song.  Duh. 
 
As far as vocals, nearly every vocal you hear has been doubled (sang the same notes twice and dropped the double back in the mix).  Sometimes I will even double the lead vocal twice, and pan them hard L and R, and back them down in the mix.
 
In the last song I did ("Brain Grinder" youtube link below) I also did the +/- 3, 6, 9, 12 detune vocal fattening trick by cloning the lead vocal 8 times and pitch shifting.  Although my Aux-fat track it is pretty far back in the mix, it was noticeable when I turned it off.  So I think from now on I am going to add that to my standard bag of tricks.
 
When it comes to harmony, other than hitting the right notes scale-wise, I always double each part and do the LR pan trick.  For 5 part harmony (I'm a singer - my granny sang with the Met) that winds up being 10 tracks, and a lot of sweat and body odor in the vocal booth.

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#10
Anderton
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 10:18:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kevinwal 2016/03/18 15:03:48
Leadfoot
Try working out your harmonies with a VST synth. Then take out the root note, and sing along with just the harmony notes. You can track your harmonies using this technique, then just delete the synth when you're done tracking the vocals.



A variation on this theme...I do the same thing, but with Melodyne. I create a harmony by applying Melodyne to the original vocal part, then learn the harmony, sing along with it, and eventually erase  it. (Interestingly, I'm often able to hit notes I didn't think I could reach when singing along with the harmony.)
 
And as jpetersen points out...
 
jpetersen
That said, if it's far back enough and there's a lot of other stuff going on, you can get away with it. What I find with Melodyne is that, if you shift a lot (a few tones) you get odd artifacts. But if it's pushed back, the character is still recognizable, so it will still sound like it's you singing.

 
This can indeed work well within the constraints he mentions, especially if you have Melodyne Editor and vary the formant (which you can also do with V-Vocal).
 

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rbecker
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 13:45:12 (permalink)
I mostly follow what many posters have suggested...I write all the melody and harmony parts to midi tracks - one track per part - and then play the specific part I am recording voice for along when I sing. I record the main melody line first, then tweak it with Melodyne and otherwise get it in good shape, then mute the midi lead vocal, but play the sung lead vocal along with midi harmony_part_1 while I sing harmony_part_1...Then Melodyne and fix harmony_part_1 and mute midi harmony_part_1 and move onto harmony_part_2 etc.etc.etc...
 
If I am singing high harmony parts, sometimes I will not try to sing the highest notes that are up out of my range, but rather repeat a lower note and then push it up using Melodyne.
 
I have one song that the entire harmony part is a simple raising of (generally) a third above the melody line - done using melodyne. I did this because I wanted to get it done quickly to see what it would sound like...and it actually did not turn out all that bad. Here it is if you want to listen: "Open-Eyed Girl".
 
Some things to remember if modifying the melody track into a harmony track:
>You will need to do a lot of fixing of formants and other aspects of the modified track.
>You should offset pitch and timing of the modified track.
>You need to know how to write a harmony line. As stated by other posters, it is not a simple matter of moving everything up a third, fifth or any given interval. It needs to fit withing the harmonic structure of the song.
>The bigger the change from the original note, the stranger the new note will sound.
>This works best on harmony parts intended to be in the background, not duet singing.

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Sanderxpander
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 14:36:56 (permalink)
Honestly understanding what "reviewers" and "managers" and other laymen mean when they talk about your music is an art in itself. They'll say the vocals are off pitch and they mean they don't like the chord or they'll say it's too fast and they mean the arrangement is busy, etc.
Or they'll say "it needs backing vocals" and they mean your vocal sounded a bit weak (which could just be a level thing, or a mix thing) or that the choruses need another layer (organ, strings, whatever).

Unless you know this particular person and their background take their advice merely as "they didn't like it" and try to keep polishing your work as best you can. Get advice from fellow musicians you trust, check out tutorials about techniques and listen and compare to your favorite artists/songs. Putting lots and lots of time into backing vocals if you don't feel comfortable doing them, when you can't even be sure that that is why the guy rejected the songs, is a waste.
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 14:52:41 (permalink)
There's fantastic advice here. I'd only add that any effort you can put in to practicing nailing a harmony while the lead vocal is singing, then eventually learning to make up harmonies on the fly will pay off for you. There are tons of instruction videos on the net about this fascinating subject and one is out there somewhere that will work for you. It takes time but it can be done and is so worth the trouble.  It's just practice, right?

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/18 16:19:53 (permalink)
rbecker
I mostly follow what many posters have suggested...I write all the melody and harmony parts to midi tracks - one track per part - and then play the specific part I am recording voice for along when I sing. I record the main melody line first, then tweak it with Melodyne and otherwise get it in good shape, then mute the midi lead vocal, but play the sung lead vocal along with midi harmony_part_1 while I sing harmony_part_1...Then Melodyne and fix harmony_part_1 and mute midi harmony_part_1 and move onto harmony_part_2 etc.etc.etc...



This is worth repeating.
 
When you sing along to yourself you will get a much better interpretation of the flow within individual phrases which helps enormously when trying to keep the timing as tight as possible.
It's a real chore to have to fix the timing of words/syllables, especially on sibilant sounds like s's or t's - it sounds really amateurish to have the end of a word ending in s-s-s-s-s-s
 
Another way to overcome this particular problem is to only sing sibilant endings on your main vocal, don't sing them in the harmony overdubs, but watch you don't crack up with laughter when doing this!
 

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Kev999
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/19 03:09:57 (permalink)
I don't sing myself but I often arrange vocal harmonies for others to sing. If the vocalist is not good at harmonising against an existing lead vocal, I sometimes create a guide vocal for the harmony using a copy of the existing LV by pitch-shifting the notes using either V-Vocal or Melodyne. Although it always sound artificial, it's usually adequate as a guide vocal. It works better still if, instead of using the existing LV for this, I base it on a suitable alternative LV take (or clips from different takes). This way, although the harmony itself still sounds artificial, it will sound a bit more convincing alongside the LV.

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Mystic38
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/19 12:28:11 (permalink)
Check out TC Helicon Voiceworks... 
 
This is a hardware vocal processing & harmony generator.. of which TC has made several versions.. Voiceworks, Voiceworks PLus, and the Voicelive Rack.. I own the first and recently purchased the latter...with my Voiceworks now going up for sale i suspect.
 
You can create up to 4 parts, each part derived from the lead vocal (which can be muted) but with each part having programmable male/female vocal shape (actually from troll/mouse), rise time, delay, vibrato amount, etc.. these can be fixed interval, set to scale, played in via midi note, extracted from chords charted or played (sounds very natural), and the latter version allows them to be extracted from chords derived from audio input. 
 
Given that early versions of the rack are ~$175 on Ebay this is a cheaper, simpler & quicker solution that mucking about with Melodyne once you have edited a couple of presets to your liking (and fwiw i do own Melodyne editor) ..
 
if you have more detailed questions thre are a ton of vids available and you can feel free to pm me.. 

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rbecker
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/19 13:21:10 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
 
It's a real chore to have to fix the timing of words/syllables, especially on sibilant sounds like s's or t's - it sounds really amateurish to have the end of a word ending in s-s-s-s-s-s
 
Another way to overcome this particular problem is to only sing sibilant endings on your main vocal, don't sing them in the harmony overdubs, but watch you don't crack up with laughter when doing this!
 



Actually, I find myself sometimes doing THE EXACT OPPOSITE! If I have a tune where I feel the terminal consonant for a word was weak or missing....Usually a "t", "st" or "d" sound. I then create a special audio track in Sonar and sing along with the lead vocal, but ONLY sing the missing consonant! Played alone, this track sounds really strange, but when split up, mixed in and nudged back and forth with the lead vocal, can add some missing definition to the lyrics.

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Kev999
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Re: vocal effects? 2016/03/19 17:34:39 (permalink)
rbecker
...If I have a tune where I feel the terminal consonant for a word was weak or missing....Usually a "t", "st" or "d" sound. I then create a special audio track in Sonar and sing along with the lead vocal, but ONLY sing the missing consonant! Played alone, this track sounds really strange, but when split up, mixed in and nudged back and forth with the lead vocal, can add some missing definition to the lyrics.

 
Great tip! I'll be giving that a try soon.

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