Helpful ReplyCrappy sound with good engineering technique, please help

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Puggles
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2016/04/03 01:16:35 (permalink)

Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help

Hello all, I am new to the forum, but not to Cakewalk products.
 
I just upgraded to Sonar Platinum and I like it so far and the plugins that came with it.
 
I do have some questions as to why my sound for my drums is seeming "sub-par" lately.  I will list my equipment that I'm using as follows.  
-For my audio interface is a Presonus firestudio (which is in perfect working order) 8 I/O's
-Overhead mics are AKG perception 420's
-Snare/toms are SM 57's
-Floor tom is Audix i5
-Kick drums are AKG D 112's
 
The overheads sound just fine (even in post), the kick drums are also good, but I'm disappointed with my snare and tom sound.
I have about 10 years of audio engineering experience and that is what's making me the most frustrated of all.
 
I just got a bunch of new XLR cables and I tested them and they all work just fine (the new cables have no impact on this current issue), I also put on all new drum heads that are worn in and tuned to pitch, but when I record the drums, they sound "weak".  The snare mic is pointed more towards the rim than the middle of the drum, with about 1" of distance and the tom mics are pointed more towards the middle of the drum for more low end at about 1" as well.  
 
After I record the drums and then go to mix them and apply EQ and compression etc. in post, just listening to the "raw" recording, the snare and the toms sound very "weak and puny".  They are being played at normal volume and the I/O's are as close to unity without going into the yellow or red (so there is no clipping).
 
I don't get it.  The recording volume is loud enough and the signal path is clear and unobstructed, the recording I/O's are setup correctly (in Firestudio and Sonar) but they sound like something is "wrong", or "missing".
 
I'm getting desperate, because it's not worth recording anything because, what's the point when you have garbage coming in, no matter what you do you have garbage going out.
 
Thanks!
 
 
#1
MacFurse
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 01:53:46 (permalink)
I'd start at the beginning of the chain and work your way through. Replace all the mic's, one by one. You've done the leads, so interface next, then computer drives, ram and motherboard, in that order. If none of that works, it's the shells, so start with each of those. Obviously it's not the software.
 
Your right. Garbage is garbage after all. Frustrating heh!

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Pragi
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 02:19:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/04/03 04:16:36
Hello and welcome,
could be a phase problem between snare and tom (s-) cause your are using the same mics for snare and tom´s aso.
Sure you have tried to turn the phase of the snare and play it separate with each tom. from 0 turn up the volume of the 
snare til you get a phased ( as crappy as you described above) sound, then turn again the phase of the snare .
If you have still the same probs with the other tom´s, do the same with the rest of the tom´s , but keep the snare
volume fixed.
 
So, I´m a bit in a hurry so that I can´t go deep into details,
sure you know where I´m talking about.
regards
post edited by Pragi - 2016/04/03 15:57:43
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 05:41:18 (permalink)
I'd also suggest phase. Zoom in on the recording and see if the snare is in phase with the overheads or, if you're getting a lot of bleed, with your tom mics. Also see if the snare and toms on your two overheads are in phase - if not, you may need to make their stereo spread wider to minimize the effect.
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John T
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 06:29:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/03 11:27:35
Puggles
 
 
I don't get it.  The recording volume is loud enough and the signal path is clear and unobstructed, the recording I/O's are setup correctly (in Firestudio and Sonar) but they sound like something is "wrong", or "missing".
 



There's nothing to not "get" here. It's really simple:
 
1/ Is any of the gear malfunctioning? If it is, fix it. If not, go to 2.
 
2/ Do the drums actually sound good in the room? If not, fix that, if they do, go to 3
 
3/ If the gear is all working correctly, and the drums sound good in the room, then by definition, your mic choices and positions are incorrect. Fix that. You are, again, by definition, not using "good technique".
 
That's it. No step four. Move the mics and listen on headphones. Point the mics to where they sound good. Pointing mics to a supposedly "good" position, that isn't based on them sounding good, makes no sense. I'm dubious about this "pointing to the rim rather than the middle" thing. Something like this can only be  rule of thumb. Point it where it sounds good.
 
You say it sounds bad despite using good technique. This is not a useful way of thinking. If it sounds bad, then you are using inappropriate technique. Or to put it another way, bad technique, for the task at hand. Might be good technique for some other task, but it's not working here, so stop doing it.

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 06:35:08 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
I'd also suggest phase. Zoom in on the recording and see if the snare is in phase with the overheads or, if you're getting a lot of bleed, with your tom mics. Also see if the snare and toms on your two overheads are in phase - if not, you may need to make their stereo spread wider to minimize the effect.

 
This was also the first thing I thought is happening: phase issue between room / OH mics and close mics.
 
don't forget to listen to the kit in the live room. e.g. if it doesn't sound good enough in the studio, you need to fix the kit itself first.
 
then check your OH/room mics (each stereo pair by itself, with everything else muted) - if it sounds/feels like what you heard when you were near the kit. if you are happy, check the snare by itself ...
 
If all close mics by themselves sound reasonable, take care of the phase (at least by flipping the phase switches properly) but better would be based on a recording where you can look at time differences between transients (e.g. snare compared to OH) and insert a delay plug-in (e.g. ChannelTools) which allows you to delay based on a specified amount of samples. Add the proper delay to all your close mics to match the OH and room mics (also match close OH and far room mics if you use several pairs) ...
 
Keep the tom mics out of the picture until you are happy with OH/room/kick/snare because that will give you most of your drum sound already. tom tracks might require heavy editing later anyway as they might just contain bleed that negatively impacts your sounds (for 99.9% of the recorded track) plus those 6 hits they during the 3 fills :-)
 
Let us know how it goes so that we can give you more hints on what else to try ...
 
 

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#6
Sanderxpander
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 07:04:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/03 11:27:58
I'm also a little confused by the OP statement that he has 10 years experience with audio engineering. Does this include recording and mixing live drums this way? Did it sound good in the past and now it doesn't? That would suggest a phasing issue as they can be tricky to pinpoint. Or is this the first venture, in which case mic aiming and even compression technique could be at fault.
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wst3
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 09:35:26 (permalink)
not piling on just for fun<G>...
 
stop and take a breath - if you've done this successfully in the past you can do it again!

As folks have already mentioned, the basic troubleshooting process is three steps:
1) do the drums sound good in the room?
2) is everything working properly? (you seem to have that covered, nothing wrong with the Presonus interface!)
2a) have  you ever used these specific microphones on a kit before?
3) are the mics selected and placed well?

if you reach step 3 (suspect you will) then I'd fall back to a 3 or 4 microphone configuration to start -
D112 on kick, SM57 on snare/hat, something on overheads. I have tried the Perception microphone once, did not like it on vocals or acoustic guitar, and can't imagine it working terribly well on a kit - but that could also be personal taste!
 
While I'm being a big old wet blanket, any chance you can get a decent small capsule condenser microphone for the snare/hat? I love dynamic microphones, but there are some places where a condenser capsule makes life so much easier! Just beware of some of the more cost-effective products, many of them do not handle sharp transients as well as they might!
 
AND... how are you setting up the overheads? I find these can be a real challenge, especially if you have a lower ceiling. I usually set them up Mid/Side or Blumlein, or if I am using small capsule microphones I might try coincident. I've tried spaced pairs - large and small capsules, omni and cardiod pickup patterns- never got it to work!
 
anyway, if you start with the basic 3 or 4 microphone configuration and get that  to sound good then you can add additional spot microphones to taste, and you'll only be tweaking the position of one microphone at a time.
 
This ain't your first time at the rodeo - you probably have a strange and troublesome microphone in the  kit - most likely it is placement, nothing more, perhaps placement with respect to the kit, maybe placement with respect to a boundary?

One last trick, which you probably know, but just in case... a quick troubleshooting techniques  that gets used a lot for live sound, but works anywhere - mute all the microphones, unmute the kick, add in the snare - does it sound ok? add in the overheads - do they sound ok? Add in the rest of the microphones one at a time, whenever you have one that turns the drum mix to mid mute it and move on.

Have fun!

-- Bill
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paradoxx@optonline.net
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 10:41:10 (permalink)
I was thinking phase as well, enjoyed this post!
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Anderton
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 11:07:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/03 11:30:35
I try to use the minimal amount of mics on drums. The Glyn Johns method, which uses 4 mics, is a great way to get a solid drum sound. 
 
If the tracks are already recorded and the performances are good, use Platinum's Drum Replacer to deal with the snare and toms. I assume because the drums have separate mics they're going to separate tracks.

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paradoxx@optonline.net
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 11:21:07 (permalink)
I've used the Drum replacer as well, its a great tool!
 
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 11:22:42 (permalink)
Almost surely phase related...
 
The OP mentions that the sound coming off the overheads sounds good/balanced.
With the OH mics playing, add the snare close-mic track (nothing else while trouble-shooting).
If the sound doesn't get fuller (or gets weaker), then there's phase cancellation going on.
You can resolve this several different ways.
  • Quick way is to try using a phase switch (which will change the phase 180 degrees).
  • There are also plugins that allow exact adjustment of phase (not just 180 degrees)
  • You can also zoom in and manually (visually) align the phase of the snare track with the overheads.  Since the snare mic is closer than the overheads, it's signal will be a littler earlier.  Drag it back to where the waveform phase aligns with the overheads.
Phase related issues are common when using multiple mics at different distances.
Drum kit is an obvious example... with room, overheads, and clock mics.
The Overheads are much more distant from the snare and toms than the close mics... so it would be common for them to initially be out of phase.  With careful mic placement (overheads), you can minimize/avoid this issue.
Google search for "3:1 mic placement".
 
Add one drum mic at a time... making sure the new track is in phase (sound gets bigger/fatter).
Once all mics are in phase, the overall drumkit should sound pretty decent.
 
If you're working in modern pop/rock/country, I'd suggest routing the individual drum tracks to a Drum Subgroup.
On this drum subgroup, apply a bit of "bus compression".  The SSL Bus Compressor is perfect in this application.
Gives the drumkit more "weight/umph" without making it sound overly squashed.
Be careful with compression on cymbals.  Too much... and the cymbals sound unnatural.
 
IMO, The key to getting good acoustic drum sounds starts with the overheads.
If the overheads sound good... you've got a solid foundation on which to build.
If the overheads don't sound good... I'd recommend re-positioning and re-recording.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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#12
tlw
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 11:24:33 (permalink)
The Glyn Johns method is great for natural sounding drums and a technique that goes right back to the early days of multi-track recording, or even just multi-channel mixers. Works well live to, unless the components in the kit are badly balanced acoustically.

Not so useful if you want to heavily compress or otherwise process part of the kit, e.g. compress the toms while not compressing the cymbals. Though spillage will cause problems with a multi-mic setup as well of course.

Which is one reason for the popularity of the Alesis SR16 back in the 90s and, as you say, replacing drums with samples nowadays.

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Anderton
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 12:12:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby karhide 2016/04/03 12:56:52
tlw
The Glyn Johns method is great for natural sounding drums and a technique that goes right back to the early days of multi-track recording, or even just multi-channel mixers. Works well live to, unless the components in the kit are badly balanced acoustically.

Not so useful if you want to heavily compress or otherwise process part of the kit, e.g. compress the toms while not compressing the cymbals. Though spillage will cause problems with a multi-mic setup as well of course.



True, but compressing the overheads or adding room mics and compressing them can be a thing of beauty  

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#14
vanceen
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 14:18:52 (permalink)
Plenty of people have suggested phase, but one more won't hurt.
 
I've learned a lot about mic'ing drums over the last few years, trying all kinds of combinations. I've accumulated a number of good mics over the same years, so I've gone from using mostly SM-57s to using much "better" mics: LDCs, various SDCs, ribbon mics, large dynamics (e.g. SM7), a couple of different kinds of kick drum mics, and so forth. Not to mention pre-amps.
 
Some people might disagree, but I would say that going from a half dozen SM57s to using 14 expensive mics on a kit can take you from "good" to "very good". It won't take you from "terrible" to "very good". If the kit sounds good in the room and you don't have major phase problems, it's not going to sound "terrible" in the recording.
 
The same goes for positioning (always assuming you're not getting big phase problems). I love the way my kit sounds with 14 good mics. But recently, for grins, I mic'd it up with just a couple of CAD Equitek LDC's for overheads and an SM7 about four feet away in the front. It sounded really very good, quite usable. OK, I would lack the control you get from close mic'ing individual drums, but it sounded good.
 
If you're getting a very poor result with the technique you're describing, either the drums just sound bad, you're getting phase problems, or something in your equipment chain is broken. 
post edited by vanceen - 2016/04/03 14:45:13

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#15
tenfoot
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 14:31:44 (permalink)
Puggles
 
I just got a bunch of new XLR cables and I tested them and they all work just fine


An outside chance, but did you test the new cables with a cable tester or multi metre? It has only happened to me once in 30 years, but I recently  bought 12 brand new mic cables only to find that pins 2&3 were cross-wired on 2 of them. 

Bruce.
 
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Anderton
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 18:36:25 (permalink)
About multi-miking vs. a limited number of mics...in the 60s, my band did some sessions in London with Damon Lyon-Shaw, who engineered "Tommy" and miked Keith Moon's drums. Our drummer Kevin had lots of toms and two kicks, and Damon miked each drum. Of course, he knew what he was doing and did a great job of controlling leakage and phase issues; the degree of control was exemplary. 
 
However, I engineered a hip-hop session a couple years ago where Brian from Public Enemy was producing, and did a variation on the Glyn Johns thing (although I put significant effort into the room mics too). It was a much simpler kit than Kevin's, so it was tailor-made for the minimalist approach. 
 
The sound had a lot of impact - the fewer the mics, the more the drums present a "united front" from a sonic standpoint. Although it was tracked in Pro Tools, I mixed in SONAR because with the QuadCurve EQ, it was pretty easy to "mix" the drums by just doing a little tweaking with EQ.
 
One other thing: I almost never use compression with drums, only on the room mics and even then it's parallel compression. Limiting is my main dynamics processor of choice with drums.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#17
MacFurse
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 19:37:57 (permalink)
I think most missed the intent of this post, as evidenced by the responses. Having said that, some great information passed on. It's a good topic after all. But the MO of the OP's (read plural) post (s), in my view, tiresome!
 
tenfoot

An outside chance, but did you test the new cables with a cable tester or multi metre? It has only happened to me once in 30 years, but I recently  bought 12 brand new mic cables only to find that pins 2&3 were cross-wired on 2 of them. 



There were a number of imports last year Bruce that were dodgy. All appeared high quality cable, good hardware, great terminations/heat shrinking etc, that were failing straight out of the box, or with little use, and were terminated incorrectly. I had one cable that had 5 breaks in the positive conductor over a 2 metre length. I got the cables from Perth, Melbourne and Sydney, but they were the same cable. L and R's reversed, pins reversed on XLR's, and the faults within the cable themselves as mentioned. I've bought a 100m roll of Mogami and make what I need now, after a number or tracking projects went wrong due to the above problems. Frustrating. We appear to be a dumping ground at times.

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#18
jimkleban
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 19:57:25 (permalink)
I was going to suggest the AJ method as well and if that sounds good then start to build on it.  The room has everything to do with the sound of the drums.  The AJ method (since it is simple) can either eliminate the room as the issue, the mic choices as the issue the mic placement, etc. The AJ method also eliminate PHASE as the problem.  I just like to start there because it is so easy.  If the room allows, I love both stereo OHs and stereo room mics to bring the obvious AIR into the mix.
 
And drums are such a matter of taste.  The AJ method also shows that the OHs mics are where the sound comes from and not the close mic'ed tracks (which I only use to accentuate an attack or a certain sound).  But this is just me.
 
I can say this, SPLAT and a good audio interface should yield good drum sounds provided the room sounds good, the kit sounds good and is tuned correctly and the drummer knows how to play and controls the dynamics.  But I am only stated the obvious.
 
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#19
tenfoot
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/03 22:33:43 (permalink)
MacFurse
There were a number of imports last year Bruce that were dodgy. All appeared high quality cable, good hardware, great terminations/heat shrinking etc, that were failing straight out of the box, or with little use, and were terminated incorrectly. I had one cable that had 5 breaks in the positive conductor over a 2 metre length. I got the cables from Perth, Melbourne and Sydney, but they were the same cable. L and R's reversed, pins reversed on XLR's, and the faults within the cable themselves as mentioned. I've bought a 100m roll of Mogami and make what I need now, after a number or tracking projects went wrong due to the above problems. Frustrating. We appear to be a dumping ground at times.



I guess quality control on imports has fallen victim to ebay prices MacFurse. I thought my experience may have been anomalous, but it looks like it's time to break out the soldering iron again. Ahh - I love the smell of roasting soft metals in the morning!

Bruce.
 
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bandso
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/06 16:27:25 (permalink)
I don't think anyone here has mentioned the skill level of the drum player and their playing technique. I know when I record myself on my own drum kit it usually sounds like garbage (as I am not a drummer but can play a basic beat) yet my band's drummer can record on the same kit with the same recording setting and mic positioning and make it sound phenomenal. 

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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/07 11:39:17 (permalink)
vanceen
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Some people might disagree, but I would say that going from a half dozen SM57s to using 14 expensive mics on a kit can take you from "good" to "very good"....



I agree with your logic, but not that you need 14 mics or that they have to be "expensive".  For example I have a pair of CAD M179s that are a thing of beauty on Toms.  I paid $300 for the pair.  That's just one example.  Definitely agree, though, that SM57s will only go so far.
post edited by JonD - 2016/04/07 12:04:18

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vanceen
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Re: Crappy sound with good engineering technique, please help 2016/04/07 14:21:33 (permalink)
JonD
vanceen
...
Some people might disagree, but I would say that going from a half dozen SM57s to using 14 expensive mics on a kit can take you from "good" to "very good"....



I agree with your logic, but not that you need 14 mics or that they have to be "expensive".  For example I have a pair of CAD M179s that are a thing of beauty on Toms.  I paid $300 for the pair.  That's just one example.  Definitely agree, though, that SM57s will only go so far.




I might have expressed myself poorly. My point was that better mics and more sophisticated placement can indeed make a real difference, but not the difference between "crappy" (as the OP reports) and "very good". (Always barring bad phase problems.) If the recording sounds terrible, moving the left overhead two inches to the right (or even replacing it with a U47) isn't going to make it sound "very good". Something else is wrong.
 
The fact that I've upgraded my microphones and tried to learn something about placement says that I think the improvements you can get with those tactics are worth it. Speaking very roughly, they might take you from a "6" drum recording to an "8" or "9". But they won't take you from a "1" to a "9".
 
(And of course, "expensive" is definitely relative. For some people, any mic less than $3k isn't "expensive". I'm using Sennheiser e604's for toms, which go for less than your CAD M179's. I like the results I get with them, though!)

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