Helpful ReplyUpsampling On Render/Playback Question

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AdamGrossmanLG
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2016/04/04 02:19:08 (permalink)

Upsampling On Render/Playback Question

Hello,
I am reading that if your project is in 44.1 but you have a plugin that works best in 88.2 or 96 Khz you can choose the Upsampling on Render and playback for plugins that don't automatically upsample.

My question is, how do you know if a specific plugin is upsampling or not?   I'm not sure when to use these new upsampling options.

Thank You!
#1
lfm
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Re: Upsampling On Render/Playback Question 2016/04/04 07:20:57 (permalink)
In general upsampling is favoured for synths, especially if doing any resampling. Every note produce aliasing artifacts.
Depending on material it's more obvious improvement or not.
 
So general idea is if plugins supports the doubled sample rate - you can use it in Sonar upsampling without having to run the full project in higher sample rate and everything that goes with that. More disk space, higher load on computer etc.
 
Upsampling is really picking the cherries in the Cake. But there are plugins like Metaplugin that allow it too.
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Sycraft
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Re: Upsampling On Render/Playback Question 2016/04/04 09:46:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/04/04 10:42:39
There is no way to know what an individual plugin does without checking its documentation. Unfortunately, not all of them are good about documenting it. Some plugins don't oversample and operate at whatever rate the project is because it doesn't matter to them, the way they work it isn't relevant they are inherently band-limited (meaning nothing they do can introduce frequencies outside the passband). Others have internal oversampling for the parts that are needed and further oversampling is redundant. Still others will resample all audio to a given frequency because that's what the operate at, so setting any oversampling just causes to them do resampling.
 
Then of course there are some that would benefit from oversampling, but don't. That is what the feature in Sonar is for.
 
I don't know of any good lists out there for how different plugins work, so you kinda have to look on a case by case basis.
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Anderton
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Re: Upsampling On Render/Playback Question 2016/04/04 09:56:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/04/04 10:42:37
To add to the above, there are also some plug-ins that oversample some elements but not others. For example with TH2, I believe they oversample the amp; but using upsampling in SONAR does a subtle improvement of the reverb sound by preventing its stereo image from "wandering."
 
Fortunately with upsampling on playback, you can compare and hear if upsampling leads to an improvement. My rule of thumb is if I can hear a difference, I use it. Also note that although many plug-ins do oversampling internally, this will require more CPU. By running a plug-in without oversampling and waiting until mixdown to upsample, you can save CPU power.

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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Upsampling On Render/Playback Question 2016/04/04 10:28:42 (permalink)
Thank you everyone for the help!

I love this feature because it allows me to keep my projects in 24 bit/44.1.
I know a lot of people record in 24 bit/96, but it makes my system slower.   I also really can't hear any difference.
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bitflipper
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Re: Upsampling On Render/Playback Question 2016/04/04 11:21:54 (permalink)
There is little risk in upsampling a plugin's input, other than the remote possibility that a given plugin can't deal with it properly. You could probably upsample everything and not see a downside beyond the extra CPU consumption. But you might as well start by ignoring effects that you know won't benefit from it.
 
As a general rule, quality plugins only need upsampling if they are capable of creating harmonic distortion: primarily dynamics processors and distortion plugins. That includes limiters, compressors, gates, amp sims, tape sims, harmonic exciters and tape delays. But it isn't always obvious whether an effect introduces distortion or not, or whether the plugin deals with it internally. Filters and filter-based effects generally don't add distortion, and therefore don't need upsampling.
 
Even distortion plugins don't necessarily benefit from upsampling. Many do it internally anyway, or employ other techniques to avoid aliasing. High-end limiters such as Ozone or Pro-L, for example, simply do not alias, even at very aggressive settings. Even the much-maligned Boost11 doesn't alias easily.
 
If you really want to build a list of plugins that would benefit from upsampling, you can test your own collection yourself. Create a project with a single audio track and import or generate a series of sine wave pulses into it, and insert an instance of SPAN. Then stick in various plugins (in front of SPAN) and try to make them alias. What you're looking for is frequencies in SPAN's display that are not harmonically related to the fundamental test tone.


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