[I give up for now] Midi it needs a kick!

Audio clips should have timebase set to absolute, MIDI clips should be set to M:B:T.
 
 

Ok,
 
I went back to the original file, played it to make sure I had a good un-modified baseline. I did.
Selected ALL
Un selected all the midi tracks.
Went to the inspector set the Timebase to absolute (As apposed to musical) - new sonar nomenclature?
Spot checked a few analog clips to ensure they were indeed set to absolute.
Checked midi drum clip - it was still set to musical as desired.
Dragged Acoustic strum reference track to time line to create tempo map from it.
Tempo map created looks nice and human.
Played Song.
Drums start out ok but soon are playing out of sync (as if) they are not obeying the new tempo map.
 
This leads me to think that:
A. I don't know what I'm doing with respect to the tempo map and midi. - never did this before at all.
B. Previous thoughts that the drums were locked before may have been a placebo effect.
 
But I have a CD and there is no doubt that in places where if felt as if there was a lag the music now cruises right through. - This CD is from where the midi was set to musical timebase before when the piano went nuts. 
 
 

brundlefly
I don't think it's possible to have MIDI and Audio tracks stay in sync when using the drag-to-timeline feature. You can get the start times of clips to stay in sync by adjusting the timebase, but the absolute timing and duration of events inside MIDI clips are going to follow the tempo changes while the audio will not.
 
Audiosnap's Set Project from Clip, and Set Measure/Beat At Now functions are programmed to change tempos around MIDI, adjusting the numeric durations accordingly to maintain the absolute playback timing, but drag-to timeline doesn't do this.
 
The bottom line is that drag-to-timeline is only applicable to pure audio projects. It would require a feature request to have it accommodate projects that already include MIDI.

Thanks brundlefly, But that leaves me more confused.
 
Lets say I have a file with only a midi track driving a synth. If I go in a hand change the tempo map inserting new tempos, isn't the midi to faithfully track that tempo map?
 
It is often said to those who tried to change the tempo with audio tracks and were unsuccessful told over and over only midi will track a tempo change barring the use of AudioSnap?

I can be in the Springs with my DAW in ~3 hours.
 
(just kidding).

I had exactly the same issues with EXISTING MIDI tracks within a project I later applied a tempo map to

What made my issue even more frustrating is that I set the tempo map from the rendered audio of my piano MIDI track - so was convinced the MIDI should be in perfect time with the tempo map (because the tempo map was created from it)

This can get a bit confusing so I hope you follow - it may take a few reads until the penny drops but I think I can explain what is going on...

I wanted to try another piano sound but when I played the MIDI it was all out of sync (even though the tempo map was created from the rendered audio, which was created from the piano MIDI)

I therefore wanted the MIDI piano to "ignore" the tempo map and play exactly as it did before

However, as pointed out when I posted this question in the forum, the MIDI needs to follow the project tempo - if it ignores it how will know when to play the notes!!

It is as if a "paradox" has been created

The original MIDI file was created following a tempo - even if the piano was played completely ignoring "the grid" - there is always a tempo set in Sonar (even without a click) so the MIDI is still recorded relative to this tempo (even if it is not being used by the performer and they are playing completely free form)

When a tempo map is then applied the MIDI has to follow this new tempo map (since MIDI only contains info about when to play a note relative to the tempo of the project, how long to hold the note, the velocity of the note etc.)

Therefore since the project tempo has changed (via the tempo map extracted from the audio) any MIDI tracks have no option but to follow this new tempo map - which is different to the tempo at which they were originally recorded - which is why they now play out of sync!

Phew! It has taken me ages to get my head around this but this is what I think is happening


As a "workaround" for this project my advice would therefore be to create a NEW project at the exact tempo of your existing project BEFORE the tempo map was applied and your MIDI played in sync with the audio

Import your original MIDI file of the piano into this new project

Tweak anything you want to tweak (in my case it was changing the piano VST but you can tweak any MIDI data as well)

Bounce or export this as audio

Put the audio version back in your original project and it should play nicely with everything else

You can insert NEW MIDI tracks and they will happily follow the tempo map (as the the notes will be recorded relative to the tempo map) - so in future if you will be using MIDI make sure the tempo map is set first using the audio you want to play along to - then quantizing etc. will work

I hope this makes sense and helps you and others get over the confusion of how exiting MIDI recordings appear to go "out of sync" when a tempo map has been applied AFTER they have been recorded

This is not an issue with Sonar or Melodyne - it is simply a case that the MIDI file has no option other than to follow the project tempo

If the MIDI was originally recorded at one tempo (I've before the tempo map was applied) it is completely logical (if I have explained it correctly) that the MIDI will now follow the new tempo map if it is applied - therefore it will NOT play as before (as it is now following a different tempo than it was recorded to) so will play out of sync with any audio recorded at the original tempo

No, each MIDI note has a time stamp, which is always RELATIVE to the project tempo

You recorded the MIDI at one tempo

When you apply a tempo map it varies the tempo of the project - so rather than playing at the original tempo it will follow the new tempo map

Think of it like this...

You record a MIDI part with the project set at 120bpm

You record some audio

You then change the project tempo to 110bpm

This MIDI will now be out of sync with the audio

Thanks you guys.
Azslow3, I downloaded AZ Lua.
Will try it.

bitman
Thanks you guys.
Azslow3, I downloaded AZ Lua.
Will try it.

kevinwal
Very cool work, azslow3! I checked out your forum, I'm going to spend some time poking around this stuff.

Just one note, that is included bold in my post about AZ Lua, but...
To sync MIDI clip to real tempo, you need (a) install AZ Lua, (b) load examples file using Cakewalk plug-in manager (Sonar utilities menu) and (c) "process" the clip using AZ Lua, selecting tempo map preset in it and setting BPM correctly (the tempo which was set during this MIDI clip recording). So, no need to poking around, no need to learn Lua, the same way and the same time as using any other MIDI effect in Sonar.
 
Sure, there can be some problems, questions, etc. I have exactly one "beta tester", which is the same person as the developer, quality control, marketing team and selling manager. That is me. As the selling manager I am catastrophic (the product is offered for free, even without ads on the forum), as marketing team I am bad (my english is bad, no videos about the product) but I hope I am at least average with other responsibilities

+1, that actually made me chuckle Alexey. For a one-man show (in most cases), you have outdone some with those teams available.

Interesting thread... 
 
Not that I've had the need to any of this, but I had a thought: what if you freeze the MIDI track before applying the tempo map and drag that clip to an empty audio track, drag the guitar track clip to the timeline to generate the new tempo map, un-freeze the piano track and move the MIDI clip elsewhere, then drag the frozen audio to the piano track so that Melodyne does its Audio to MIDI conversion?  I'm thinking that the notes would be generated at their original locations since they're being created based on the new tempo map.

By freezing the synth track audio is generated instead, with transients replacing MIDI note-ons.  I was thinking that if the audio is converted back to MIDI after the tempo map was generated, it'd be a direct transient to note-on generation in the opposite direction as the freeze, so those events would be at their original location in absolute time.    Or maybe I'm over-thinking things....  

Can you link us to this thread you speak of Azslow3?

Azslow3, If the Bakers dont take you on as their Midi implementation specialist / Developer then the world has gone mad.
 
Your developments never cease to amaze me.