mettelus
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Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
I got in this mood to play Motley Crue recently so tuned an Epiphone 335 down a full step. I play 10 guage strings, so this made them quite rubbery (will get fret slap if too carried away). Initially I thought of raising the bridge if I were going to leave it like this, but heavier guage might be a better choice, especially if going back to standard tuning. Does anyone use this tuning, and if so what guage strings do you use?
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pentimentosound
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 13:54:33
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I usually go up a gauge per half step down. Some necks might be more flexible, so experiment. I haven't noticed problems with going one gauge larger, as far as the nut goes, but again.... LP scale like your Epi, should be OK with 11-50 (or 48?), with longer "Fender" scale necks I've liked 11-52 or 53 On acoustics, I take the higher bass path, if gigging. D'Addario makes "down tuned" sets for electrics, by the way. Michael
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Beepster
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 13:58:23
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I used nothing but a full half step down exclusively on all my guits for years and many times, because I cared more about relative tuning with the band more than using a tuner, this would dip rather close to a full tone dowtune. It was chunkier this way. Because of this I moved up to .11 gauge. Now that I've tuned back up to 440 I still use .11. So yes... if you intend to downtune like that definitely use a thicker gauge because .10's just don't cut it and .11's are much better in 440 anyway for many reasons (stay in tune better, last longer, sound better, builds hand strength, forces you to "dig" more for notes... the only down side is bending is harder but you get used to it). .11's would probably behave almost like .09's a full tone down though. I'd personally learn the song downtuned then tune back up... unless singing is involved which of course could cause problems. However Vince Neil was really an ultra high pitch singer anyway like some of the other squealers from that era. Still... I am a massive proponent of thicker strings. Do 'er. You'll be glad you did... once the pain goes away. lulz...
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Beepster
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 14:00:56
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Oh... and you definitely need to reset your intonation, tremolo srping tension (on if your guit has one but since it's an Epi I'm assuming it's a fixed Tune-O-Matic) bridge) and likely the truss rod when making such a gauge switch. You knew that already though. Cheers, bud. ;-)
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mettelus
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 14:19:50
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Thanks for the replies. One reason I chose the Epi is because it has no neck joint, so kinda hoping for less flex between tunings. I have never dedicated a guitar to even half a step down, but this one was there for quite a while. 11's would probably be simplest, but then I was thinking I have never used 12's. I am sort of curious to see how much the tension offsets the guage, since they are essentially acoustic guage (not sure if the 3rd string is wound on these though? but then again, not sure it matters with the reduced tension). Have you guys ever tried 12's out? From a sustain-perspective they should have an edge on 11's. Quick edit - Good grief, D'Addario makes a set of 14's (I know the nut would have issues with those, lol).
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pentimentosound
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 14:33:16
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I used that 14 set on a Fender baritone Strat (27.7" scale), when I had it, and still do on my open E lap steel. Clapton's From The Cradle, had a few cuts where he tuned to C# and the strings sound "large"! LOL I have a Schecter Hellcat VI 30" six string bass (octave down) and have all wound 95-75-55-44-35-26's on that. Michael
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Beepster
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 15:06:07
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I think SRV used .13's What style Epi are you using? Personally I think neck thru would be more of a liability than a bolt on and certain models of neck thru would handle the extra tension better than others based on neck thickness. Example... an SG neck or ES335 neck is thinner and would get pulled in FAR more than an LP neck (which is far thicker). For a bolt on just make sure to tighten the neck screws every so often (I do it every time I change the strings on my Yammie Pacifica Strat clone). I used to actually do all sort of dive and vibrato tricks by just bending the necks on my SG's and other fixed bridge guits. I could get full semitone + downward dives by grabbing the headstock and reefing on it (made my other guit buddies cringe thinking I was about to snap the neck) and would do open note vibratos by clenching the body and shaking the guitar. SG's are great for this but it proves how delicate their neck can be. My point? Not much... just be careful how far you push your axe because there is definitely a "give" point when it comes to necks and truss rods. It's very likely I've warped many a truss rod (and certainly caused stress fractures in the wood) with my semi calculated mayhem. Looked and sounded cool live though. lol
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pentimentosound
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/17 18:12:33
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I haven't had my Epi Riviera (a '68) for several decades, and haven't tried down tuning anything like one. I did the 1/2 step neck bends on it, though! If you Epi 335 is like my WildKat or AlleyKat, you'll probably be fine. I don't think I'd do it to my Swingster, though. Just watch the action/neck relief, when you restring it. Michael
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/18 03:30:39
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It sounds as if you may need to experiment around a little bit with string sets too see what works for you . Over here ,what I do is spend a lot of my noodle and practice time playing acoustically on an Arch Top w 12's or 13's . What that means is I'm most comfortable playing on heaver gauge strings ..over 9's or 10's Most of my Solid Body guitars have 11's on them and for whatever odd reason it hasn't stopped me with my bending. A recent song I did called My Good Tele Gone Bad is mostly bends on the dirty sections …guitar was strung w 11's The Tele I'm playing tonight has 12's on it tuned to standard and I like the way it feels and sounds … Regarding your situation , a good bet would be to pick up a set of 11's first and give that set a try . If you are gonna tune down to D I doubt you will have to change much if any thing …intonation or truss rod …. 12 's would probably feel just a little bit tighter tuned down to D ..not by much over 10's ….feel wise … Since I have not looked at your Epi , I do not know if you would have to adjust the rod or intonation … I used 12's tuned to standard on my Epi Limited Edition 61 SG w P 90's for about 6 months and it didn't need a truss rod adjustment …now that guitar has 11's on it A good rule of thumb is to take any changes you make on a guitar to guitar basis…. As far as the heavier gauge strings go …they will usually last a lot longer , also if your nut is not binding they will stay in tune a lot better …. If you happen to be a guitarist that is looking for a Piano Bass type of sound on your lower strings or more punch Heaver gauge is the ticket … A couple of things to think about also … When you start using a beefier gauge set of strings ( even tuned down ) you can really dial in your tone . I do all my own work so I pay close attention to setting my truss rod correctly , the intonation on my bridge and setting my guitars action to ring out …. Once having done all that correctly you are now in a position to set your guitars pickups to exactly the best tone for your playing and style by adjusting the pickup heights ….. What happens is the pick ups are magnetic and they play off the vibrations of the string and the guitar body's resonance .. ( even solid bodies regardless of the wood ) When you have a beefier string , you have more metal vibrating in the pickups magnetic field …. Most people that don't know what they are doing think that if you raise the pick up that the guitar will sound better The guitar may sound louder and much muddier ..not better …. To prove that to your self all you have to do is plug in your guitar to your DAW and do a real time read off your EQ 's. When the pickup is too high it creates too much magnetic pull and it may inhibit the string from vibrating freely .. In the case of a Fender Stratocaster , if you raise the pickups too high it will actually screw up your intonation I have a few guitars over here with EMG's ..Those guitars have to have the pickups up high due to the low magnetic pull EMG's exhibit . Anyway my point is if you decide to try a heavier set of strings even for down tuning , you may want to investigate on your own some of the things I have been saying here … With the heavier strings you can lower your pick ups to the sweet spot and get a much better sound more balanced more unique . all the best, Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2016/04/18 03:53:00
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Kamikaze
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/18 09:17:45
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From looking at Bass strings, it seems that for a given guage, the tension can vary massively from manufacturer to Manufacturer and even n their own ranges. Maybe there are 10's that are a higher tension that would suit.
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mettelus
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/18 10:53:46
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Thanks for the replies everyone; it is very much appreciated! After some research, I found that D'Addario makes "BT" (Balanced Tension) sets, which are oddball guages with the intent of keeping the same tension in each string. Rather than get carried away I will start with a set of 11's and go from there. In all likelihood, I would probably just use this tuned a half-step down, so 11's should be fine. An odd aside with this guitar. Even in standard tuning, the 10's are more like "putty" than on my Dean. One reason is the 24.75 vs 25.5 length, but the other is the nut on the Epiphone is so wide in comparison. Bends on the Epiphone hit one less string than on the Dean, so not only do I have more tension per string, but I am moving/touching another string in most cases. The thing I do not like about the Epiphone is that it is head-heavy... without a good strap, it wants to nose down all the time.
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Beepster
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/18 13:02:15
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Ah... sorry. For some reason I overlooked the 335 in your OP (my brain glossed over it thinking it was referring to pitch/cents/concert tuning... derp). My old SagaII Dot/335 clone had the same neck heavy issue (the headstock constantly dove downward in standing position with a strap). Great guits but that was certainly annoying at band practice. I used to use really crappy straps too and one night at practice in my buddy's basement I let go of the guit, the neck dove downward, the strap let go at the base of the neck and the guit faceplanted right onto the concrete floor (I'm 6'4" so it had a ways to travel down too). YIKES! Fortunately it only acquired a few scratches from the ordeal but that was indeed a moment of terror. That guit was of course totally out of place for that band (high distortion 90's prog metal) and squealed like pig at high volumes though. Had to retire it to home use and get my old Ibanez rewired (so it would work properly... used to cut out all the time due to the ridiculous stock push/pull pot system). I miss that axe dearly. I kept it for years after that but pawned it for rent at one point and FORGOT I HAD PAWNED IT!!! Frooking IDIOT!!! Anyway... it had a very delicate/thin neck that was quite sensitive to tension (another axe I could divebomb just by bending the neck). I used .10s on it for years but near the end I jacked it up to .11's and the beast SUNG with those. They did bow the neck though and I was not comfortable enough to do truss rod adjustment so ended up with higher action and tuning problems. If I ever get the money I'd love to buy one of the new Epi Dot/335 models... but maybe more prefarably the Epi "Lucille" release for the wacky pickup combo knob. The only problem I see with the "Lucille" for me is the lack of F-Holes. I'm not sure if it will resonate how I want like my old long lost SagaII. I hope she found a good home. First electric I ever owned.
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tlw
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/18 18:00:22
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Glued, through or bolted necks make no difference to how the neck relief reacts to string tension. The body won't move and if a bolted on neck joint moves because string rension changed there's something very seriously wrong with it. SG necks shift easily if string guages change, 1950s profile Gibson half baseball bats tend to stay put even after a substantial change.
I use a mix of strings - my SG gets .10 Gibson Britewires, which on that particular guitar bend very easily and sound solid.
One Tele has 10-46 Fender 150s. Fingerboard is the vintage 7.25" radius, but with a sensible action string bends are easy.
Another, which I use in open E for slide, has 11-whatever it is in the set Fender 150s. If I want to take it down to D I up the guage to 12s or 13s, usually with a wound third.
A third is currently in DADGAD using a mixed set that are the A, D, and G from a .11set, with wound third, and the dropped strings the E, B and E from a .12
My Strat has a set of .13s with wound third, standard tuning. Because I wanted a Dick Dale type solid surf sound from it for what I was doing a few years ago and I don't play it often enough to make me inclined to swap the strings and do a setup. Strats tend to sound a bit gutless with lighter strings anyway, which is perhaps why SRV favoured heavier strings.
Finally an early-model ES-135 (with P100s) tuned open E with a Daddario .12 set with wound third. It's a little sloppy, but there's a huge length of string because of the trapeze tailpiece and going heavier doesn't play as well. Strings are Daddario because with most makes the wrapped part of the string isn't long enough to reach from the trapeze to the pegs, Daddarios are and I can rely on being able to get them. On this guitar going from factory .09s in standard tuning to .12s in E made no difference at all to the neck relief. Like I said, it's half a laminated maple baseball bat.
I guess what I's saying is add a thou or two for each tone you drop the string. It takes experimentation to hit on the best set though, and everyone is different. Lots of people use .09 or lighter sets which I find too elastic and lacking in body, though Tony Iommi uses ridiculously light strings because of his damaged fingers and his work with Sabbath sounds the opposite of weak. If possible find guages you can buy as a complete ready made set - can be much cheaper than buying individual strings.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/19 16:26:26
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Yes, I have to agree with the Idea that lighter gauge strings can sound very powerful and be just the ticket for some guitar players . I used to play using 9's and 10's , I certainly like the way they sound and record … Having said that , I'm still one of these people that happens to believe that tone is more a product of a persons playing style and touch . Not the gear they use all the best, Kenny
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tlw
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/19 17:03:29
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kennywtelejazz Having said that , I'm still one of these people that happens to believe that tone is more a product of a persons playing style and touch . Not the gear they use
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/20 15:00:42
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☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/04/20 22:46:04
I would say, if you are going to do this, do it right. If you're just going to mess around, don't go crazy. But if you want to really do it, dedicate a guitar strictly to this down tuning and you won't regret it. I'm permanently tuned to a C below standard E as that is how I play and the only tuning I know. There are quite a few things to watch for me, but similar rules apply even when going down a whole step. I actually use 9-42 on my guitars, but it works because the guitar is literally set up for that tuning in all aspects. The action, the truss rod, the intonation, the trem bar...and even the saddles are slightly modified, as I put little washers under them to raise or lower individual height along with custom saddles that are just 1/s and 2's. 3's are too high. That said, the heavier gauge strings will always be a good choice. But just remember there are pros and cons to all of this. One of the biggest things to watch for other than string buzz, is dual tonality. What this means is, you can literally pick up two tones on a note due to the pickup magnet grabbing the string two times because of the lack of tension as well as being too close to the pup. So you will need to adjust your pup height in most cases. The good thing about lighter gauge strings is, you won't have to deal with this because the string thickness isn't there. The con here, the strings are so loose, you can bend nearly an octave. LOL! 10's or 11's are good choices in my opinion, but you may be better off with one of those custom sets that give you thicker bottoms and normal tops for easier lead playing IF you play lead at all. The good thing is, because you will be tuned a whole step down, the extra string thickness won't be much of a change for you over being tuned 440 using lighter gauge strings. Being tuned lower will compensate a bit. But the thicker strings will definitely make the tone thicker too. But that said, you can use just about any string gauge once you set the guitar up for that gauge. No one believes I use 9's on a C tuned guitar until they try it. Also, a little string buzz is good. There is a difference between a little buzz adding to the crunch of the tone vs. fretting out buzz. That, you do not want. But mine buzz ever so slightly, but I can only hear it when the guitar is not plugged in. You know, if I noodle around with it and I'm not in an amp or pre-amp, there's a slight buzz. But it's a good buzz that actually adds to the sound. What I'd suggest is this.... Choose the strings you feel the most comfortable with Set action a little high after you are all tuned up and staying in tune Put some heat on the truss rod....meaning, tighten it so that the action appears to come down lower. From here, experiment with lowering action if need be vs. tightening/loosening the truss. You need to find a happy medium here and also remember that all the standard truss adjustment stuff we are taught for 440 standard tuning will no longer matter for you. The truss rod is adjusted for feel now...and you may have to put a considerable amount of heat/tightness on it to even things out. I always make my action a little higher, tighten the truss until I buzz a little, and see how I like it. Normally, I will want the action a little lower. So I'll drop the bridge a bit and then loosen the truss a little until I have that good combination of tight feel from the truss, and good action that just feels right. You'll know when you have it dialed in. Good luck! -Danny
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smallstonefan
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/25 13:06:13
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I had an Epi Dot before I got my Gibson 335. In both cases - in standard tuning - I found 10.5 to be the perfect size (D'Addario makes a 10.5 set). This was recommended by a buddy of mine that owned the store I bought the 335 from. Try it if you get a chance - they really just seem to "work" on that style guitar.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/25 14:57:44
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mettelus I got in this mood to play Motley Crue recently so tuned an Epiphone 335 down a full step. I play 10 guage strings, so this made them quite rubbery (will get fret slap if too carried away). Initially I thought of raising the bridge if I were going to leave it like this, but heavier guage might be a better choice, especially if going back to standard tuning. Does anyone use this tuning, and if so what guage strings do you use?
IMO, If you're going a full step down... the guitar needs to be specifically setup for that purpose. I wouldn't tune the guitar up/down with the same setup/strings. It's too much of a change... With a Trem... it would be a major PITA going back and forth (adjusting for the change in string vs spring tension).
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Zargg
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/25 16:29:07
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Hi. This will probably be of no help at all, but.. I played a friends Musicman (do not remember the model) that was dropped down to C, and he was using .13 - 56 D'Addario strings (had bolted his tremolo (stuck) professionally). It was a pleasure to play with. It just felt juicy All the best.
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MakerDP
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/28 16:20:33
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Worked for me for years: 11's for whole step D tuning 10's for half step Eb tuning Now I am back to standard tuning exclusively and I use 9's or 10's depending on the guitar.
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mettelus
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Re: Question for D tuning (full step down on all strings)
2016/04/28 18:43:40
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Thanks all for the responses. I had other things hit my plate that distracted me from this, but came back to it today. First, I bought this guitar to carry the pickup for my GR-30 way back when because it had a fixed bridge. The performance of the pickups were never to my liking, so it occurred to me that actually playing it (in any tuning) requires this to be fixed first. Initially I thought the cover plates could be removed, but quickly found this to be a no-go, since the plate is actually what is holding the pickup in place (nice "wtf" moment)... the pickup will bottom out to the back plate, but what keeps it from"just falling out" is the cover plate's friction on both the back plate and mounting ring! The pickup is potted to the face plate, but other than that there is nothing holding it in place. Unreal... Option 2, I still had the PAF PRO from my old guitar and put that into the bridge. PITA installation since the only way to access anything is via the F-hole, so reassembly required a needle, thread, a magnet, and some engineering trickery. Not a process I would recommend to anyone, since the entire harness needs to come out to replace the bridge pickup. End result was impressive, although I still need to do adjustments since the neck pickup isn't going to cut it. Clean the guitar sounds like crap, but distortion on the bridge alone sings like a bird, picks up every harmonic under the sun, and has sustain out the wazoo. I actually compressed the mounting springs fully and the bridge pickup is still not close enough and is "level," so physically it is cocked to the strings (neck edge is higher). I will have to address this when I noodle out the neck pickup. Right now the neck pickup is so weak in comparison that trying to meld them just sucks the life out of the bridge, and the neck alone lacks clarity. For the moment the guitar is back in standard tuning, but I will probably keep it at a half step down in the long run. I will need to adjust intonation once there, but may very well stay with 10s, but will probably try out 11s at some point.
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