Helpful ReplyStill a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay!

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hodshonf
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2016/04/27 15:21:22 (permalink)

Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay!

great forum, first off.
 
slowly getting back into digital recording.
 
i still have my analogue tape saturation tendencies by running channels slightly into the red.
 
BAD!
 
i've been reading it is recommended to keep levels at -6db on each channel to avoid clipping and maximize headroom.
 
if so, i'll have to force myself to do this. probably not for long since the results i've been getting are a bit odd (too hot).
 
thoughts?
#1
bapu
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 15:31:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/27 16:19:46
-6 to -12 is what I typically shoot for. Less simultaneous tracks -6, more simultaneous tracks -12.
 
To me it's all about how much I'm stacking.
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 15:51:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/27 16:19:47
Hi. I agree with Ed (Bapu). -6 to -12 is where I usually aim.
All the best.

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hodshonf
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 16:04:34 (permalink)
OK, thanks!!!
 
is it weird for me to feel it is WAY too low?
 
i know, like i said, old habits die hard.
 
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 16:05:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/04/27 16:42:48
hodshonf
OK, thanks!!!
 
is it weird for me to feel it is WAY too low?
 
i know, like i said, old habits die hard.
 


You'll get used to it. In about 11.5 years.
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sausy1981
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 16:12:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/27 19:34:42
I agree with the guys, Record low while monitoring high.
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Beepster
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 16:15:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/27 19:34:37
Edit: The following is intended for material that is already recorded. Use your hardware to check for live input clipping. If you clip on the way in your tracks are screwed. NEVER clip on the way in.
 
 
1) Use the Gain knobs at the top of the track strips to set your initial "start" volume for each track (before adding effects and whatnot). Leave your track Faders at 0db during this process. The Gain knobs are at the very start of the signal chain (so directly after the audio clips... basically it's like the "Input Trim" on an analog board).
 
2) Set each track's volume (using the gain knobs) to the "correct" level. That level may change depending on how many tracks are in the mix. They add up! The more tracks the louder things get. That's what Bapu was saying. -6db is actually kind of loud so as again noted by Bapu shoot for about -12db to maybe -8db on your TRACKS.
 
3) Create "Busses" for each set of instruments. So drums are sent to a drum bus, bass is sent to a bus (and many times you'll want multiple bass tracks being fed by a single performance but that's another story), rhythm guits to another bus, lead guits to another, lead and backing vox to their own, etc.
 
4) As those tracks hit those busses you'll want them hitting the busses so the busses register at about -6db each. If you set your Track Gain properly and you haven't sent too many tracks to a single bus it should be close. Use the Track Volume Faders to make any adjustments to acheive the -6db on each bus.
 
5) All busses go to the Master Bus (I usually set up a "Premaster" bus instead and then send that to the Master... I won't explain why here). All those -6db busses should more or less end up hitting the Master Bus at about -3db (this is the minimum amount of headroom you want to leave on your master bus for mixing.... the Mastering Engineering process makes up for the extra gain using limiters and other tools).
 
6) Use the various bus Volume Faders to make sure your Master Bus does not exceed -3db (again it's the mastering engineer's job to bring your mix up to braodcast volume which is -0.1db or as close to 0db without clipping as possible). Essentially your Master Bus should not be less than -6db and no more than -3db on a MIX.
 
Once you have set up your project in this way you can use the faders throughout the project (Track and Bus) to set levels how you like so all the sounds are cutting how you want.
 
At this point... as you add effects what you want to do is make sure NONE of the effects you add INCREASE or DECREASE volume on ANY of your tracks or busses (unless you intentionally want them to).
 
That is why pretty much all effects have "Output" level controls.
 
So what you do is add your effect, look at your track or bus meter (the one you added the effect to) then use the "Bypass" button on the effect to turn the effect off and on. You want the effect "On" volume to be the same as the effect "Off" volume. Use the effect's "Output Volume" control to make sure the peaks of the "On" and "Off" values are the same (by looking at the track or bus meters).
 
By doing that you do not ADD any extra volume in your carefully crafted signal chain while still getting the desired results from any effects you add to each track or bus... thus avoiding clipping from your effects.
 
 
That said... I am NOT a pro. This is just how I do my initial "Gain Staging". I go much crazier after that and some effects WANT to be driven harder (like they want more input signal to force the effect to work harder like a distortion effect or compressor).
 
There are also many systems for this type of thing. Again... this is just what I currently do, it seems to work but I am not a pro.
 
It should be a good start and keep you from clipping until you can learn more.
 
Cheers!
post edited by Beepster - 2016/04/27 16:39:26
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 16:20:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/27 19:34:35
sausy1981
I agree with the guys, Record low while monitoring high.




I don't do that. I play as hard as I can (or anticipate playing) and set my recording levels so the LOUDEST peaks are slightly below clipping. That's input stuff though. I thought this was about gain staging already recorded material.
 
Again... not a pro but I prefer the strongest signal I can get.
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hodshonf
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/27 19:18:28 (permalink)
i was doing the "strongest signal" thing for a bit.
 
seriously questionable results. i know, there are many more things involved.
 
but today, i tried the -6dB thing... and goodness, it sounds great.
 
still learning.
 
thanks for all the great responses!
fred
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sausy1981
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 10:59:45 (permalink)
Beepster
sausy1981
I agree with the guys, Record low while monitoring high.




I don't do that. I play as hard as I can (or anticipate playing) and set my recording levels so the LOUDEST peaks are slightly below clipping. That's input stuff though. I thought this was about gain staging already recorded material.
 
Again... not a pro but I prefer the strongest signal I can get.


I couldn't really say for sure, but it your input levels will depend on your converter, I would look at the specs of your converter to see what levels to record at, If you use your daw meters to set your recording levels you could still clip your converter even if you don't clip the meter in the daw, I have just got into the habit of recording with peaks at -12dbfs and I set and forget and I know I have no worries on clipping.  Your post on gain staging for mixing is perfect and is exactly what I do Beepster.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 11:12:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/28 11:49:29
The concept of "strongest signal" is somewhat redundant when recording in a 24bit environment.
 
It was certainly valid back in the bad old days of 16bit but these is SO much headroom in a 24 bit system that it's simply not worth the risk of having anything clipping by recording even close to 0dB.
 
You can easily prove this to yourself by recording something at -12db or thereabouts and crank up the recording afterwards and listen to the "noise floor". It will be non-existent (assuming you follow proper recording practices to start with).
 
Gain staging becomes much easier following good recording technique

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streckfus
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 11:29:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/28 11:34:24
I've started to become very conservative with levels, both in recording and setting up initial gain staging. When recording, I typically aim for an average of -18 to -12, regardless of the source. Then those random peaks are still nowhere near clipping. 
 
For gain staging, and this is something I recently picked up from David Glenn, I aim for -15 for kick, snare, bass and lead vox, and everything else for -18. That typically gets a pretty good starting point and leaves plenty of headroom. As I stack effects, I try to compensate the plugin output so that I'm not increasing volume, at least not by a lot. It helps determine if the plugin settings are actually making things better or if they're just making things louder.
 
Track count plays a significant role in this of course, but with this type of setup I usually end up hitting the mix buss at about -6db, leaving plenty of headroom for mastering or mix buss processing.

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#12
hodshonf
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 11:41:41 (permalink)
what great thread responses!
 
i have continued to experiment with lower levels and find the results especially satisfying. always good to pay attention.
 
since i have multiple simultaneous tracks for bass and guitar (through different preamps, cab sims, etc...) i have been sending the channels to a stereo bus and adding VSTs there. lower overhead and chances for unintended gain.
 
i have also been checking out some mastering plugins for the master bus.
some really great, FREE saturation, brickwall limiters and mastering EQ plugins out there.
 
quick and thorough education!
thanks all!
fred
 
 
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streckfus
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 11:50:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hodshonf 2016/04/28 12:08:03
I highly recommend checking out Graham Cochrane's tutorials at Recording Revolution and David Glenn's tutorials. I've totally stolen a lot of their tips in regards to gain staging (and mixing in general) and have found their advice to be very helpful. 
 
That isn't to say that plenty of people are able to mix great music without following any of those guidelines, but for me personally, they've really made a huge difference. I'd much rather turn my monitors up and not worry about meter levels, fader creep, and clipping.  I've found that by keeping everything low, I'm free to ride automation or add grit/distortion to my heart's content without ever having to worry about clipping.
 
I also do a lot of aux/bus routing. Much easier to control levels or process instruments from the aux/bus level then fighting with a bunch of individual tracks.

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Beepster
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 12:13:12 (permalink)
I guess the reason I blast my inputs as loud as I can before clipping is because I can. It's just me and I have plenty of time to to redo tracks or reset levels if something clips. Usually though once I set up a track/channel and jam out through it a bit I never go over from then on.
 
Now if I were in a LIVE situation and/or recording others and/or was pressed for time/unable to sit there and tweedle around so much then I'd definitely bump the inputs down more than need be just for extra clip protection. Things generally tend to get louder after sound level checks so a 3db or more buffer would be how I'd go just to be safe.
 
And of course I use my hardware as my first reference/line of defense against clipping. On the mixer if I'm using one or using the input trim on the interface if I'm going DI. Clipping outside the box (before/at the AD converters) is something nothing can be done about after the fact.
 
That said... I guess if there is some kind of sound quality benefit to turning down a bit I'm open to it. I've just always tried to get any out of the box signals as strong as I can because it seemed like the right thing to do and I HATE having compensate for low levels after the fact (I used to get that a lot before I knew what I was doing).
 
Most of what I do is DI guit and bass work anyway though or using line in from outboard gear. Then I add emulators and whatnot. So maybe this stuff doesn't affect me as much and if I did more mic/room recording the benefits would become apparent.
 
Really I've mostly cobbled together my methods by simply experimenting with things over and over again while occasionally adding little techniques I've read here and there or been told by my buddies here (thanks doods).
 
I think I'm getting close to maybe, sorta, kinda getting some decent/consistent results. I'm actually FINALLY about to start screwing around with some old band projects I've been putting off because I didn't want to make them teh suxxors due to incompetence.
 
Now I believe I can pull it off properly... all thanks to this place and a MOUNTAIN of reading, watching, studying and experimenting.
 
Of course... it could still all end up teh suxxors but it's time for that proverbial pot to get pooped in or remove my scrawny buttocks from it.
 
;-)
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rbecker
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 12:51:41 (permalink)
I used to record as close to 0 as I could get, but no more. I think the historical idea of that was to get as loud of the "good" sound (e.g. singer's voice) to mask noise caused by the equipment. This is still true to a degree, but recording equipment has come a long, long way, especially the ability to record at higher bit rates.
 
I record at 24 bits at about -15. I do gain staging, and bring the levels up in the mix as I pass through buses. BTW I am told that many effects are at their best when the signal is at about -6 or so going into them. My goal it to have the master bus outputting at about -3 or a little under when all sliders are zeroed. 

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WallyG
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 13:12:13 (permalink)
streckfus
I've started to become very conservative with levels, both in recording and setting up initial gain staging. When recording, I typically aim for an average of -18 to -12, regardless of the source. Then those random peaks are still nowhere near clipping. 
 
For gain staging, and this is something I recently picked up from David Glenn, I aim for -15 for kick, snare, bass and lead vox, and everything else for -18. That typically gets a pretty good starting point and leaves plenty of headroom. As I stack effects, I try to compensate the plugin output so that I'm not increasing volume, at least not by a lot. It helps determine if the plugin settings are actually making things better or if they're just making things louder.
 
Track count plays a significant role in this of course, but with this type of setup I usually end up hitting the mix buss at about -6db, leaving plenty of headroom for mastering or mix buss processing.




I do something very similiar. When I master an album (for my and my wife's consumption, plus any friends or relatives that will lisiten to our music!) I aim for -16LUFS for each song. When I play the CD on my car's radio, the volume of the CD is much lower than commercial music, but I'm not into the Loudness War, and just want to have the volume consistant. The -16LUFS number comes from Dave Katz.
 
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post edited by WallyG - 2016/04/28 20:23:06

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hodshonf
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 13:30:55 (permalink)
LUFS?
made me Google-Look...
 
http://www.tcelectronic.com/loudness/loudness-explained/
 
good stuff.
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jude77
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 13:46:18 (permalink)

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 13:46:56 (permalink)
Google is your friend

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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2016/04/28 18:45:58 (permalink)
Google is my friend.

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kevro2000
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2018/05/01 20:23:59 (permalink)
Related to watching your input signals during recording, lets say at -18 dbfs: is that the PEAK meter, or the RMS meter that you are watching to hit that -18?
 
thanks. K.
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fitzj
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Re: Still a newbie - Let's talk Levels! Yay! 2018/05/01 20:49:51 (permalink)
Same process with a DAW. Keep faders around Unity and control with the gain knob around -12 RMS on the master. Plugins will work better as they have sweet spots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPXKFjrgDr0
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