Proposed New PC Specs

Author
streckfus
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 339
  • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
  • Location: Minneapolis, MN
  • Status: offline
2016/05/02 18:55:12 (permalink)

Proposed New PC Specs

Aren't these threads fun?
 
So here are the guts of my proposed build. Anyone have any words of wisdom about the components? Reviews/feedback are good on all fronts, but figured I'd throw this up there to see if anyone's had issues with anything.
 
PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2 1000W
CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K (LGA 1150)
Board: MSI Z97 Gaming 5
RAM: 32GB (4x8GB) G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series DDR3 1600
GPU: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 (04G-P4-2974-KR) - the one with two DVI
Misc: Rosewill PCIE FireWire 1394a Card (board doesn't have a FireWire port...gotta connect my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40!)

Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
#1

17 Replies Related Threads

    mikedocy
    Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1157
    • Joined: 2007/05/09 23:00:37
    • Location: Cleveland, Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/02 22:19:08 (permalink)
    OK, I'll bite.
    The proposed system looks good but you have not given us any requirements or explanations for your decisions:
    Is the computer for daw only, or gaming use too? 
     
    Why not go with an LGA 1151 system?
    That said, there is nothing wrong with the current LGA 1150. They are tried and true.
    The LGA 1151 system will give you DDR4 ram and possibly 10% better CPU. You will pay a little more but you will be at the current standard.
     
    If staying with an 1150 then why the MSI Z97 Gaming 5? It seems like overkill for a daw unless you are really keen on over-clocking and using the system for gaming too. If it is a daw-only build I would forget over-clocking and concentrate on building a stable daw.
    You could save some money and go with an ASrock Z97 and still be able to over-clock. IMHO.
     
    I am finding that the current integrated graphics work fine for a daw so you can skip the Geforce card too.  :-)
     
     
     
     
    #2
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/02 23:05:31 (permalink)
    mikedocy
    OK, I'll bite.
    The proposed system looks good but you have not given us any requirements or explanations for your decisions:
    Is the computer for daw only, or gaming use too? 
     
    Why not go with an LGA 1151 system?
    That said, there is nothing wrong with the current LGA 1150. They are tried and true.
    The LGA 1151 system will give you DDR4 ram and possibly 10% better CPU. You will pay a little more but you will be at the current standard.
     
    If staying with an 1150 then why the MSI Z97 Gaming 5? It seems like overkill for a daw unless you are really keen on over-clocking and using the system for gaming too. If it is a daw-only build I would forget over-clocking and concentrate on building a stable daw.
    You could save some money and go with an ASrock Z97 and still be able to over-clock. IMHO.
     
    I am finding that the current integrated graphics work fine for a daw so you can skip the Geforce card too.  :-)



    Yeah, I should've mentioned that my PC doubles as a video production workhorse as well, After Effects & Premiere Pro specifically...even toy around a bit with 3D animation.  So not only is it Skywalker Sound, it's also Industrial Light & Magic. :)  Those video apps will take anything and everything you throw at them, hence maxing out the RAM and getting a big dog GPU.
     
    I looked at the 1151 setups, but alas, I'm being cheap. This was an unexpected expense so I'm trying to keep everything down. Of course, it's not like an 1151 setup is twice as much, so yeah, I've gone back and forth between the two and still might go that route.
     
    Not sure why I selected the MSI, honestly, because I did look at the ASrock Z97 as well. I don't do any overclocking whatsoever so when looking at boards I'm primarily looking for onboard SATA connections, USB ports, available PCI-E slots, etc. Boards are always the toughest thing for me to choose because there are so damn many of them. Right now the ASrock is actually $10 more than the MSI...but that's negligible of course. 
     
    This will be my fourth PC build and previously I had an Intel, ASUS, and EVGA so I'm not sold on any one brand...just want something rock solid & reliable.

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #3
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 09:37:29 (permalink)
    So I've been looking more at the 1151 option and surprisingly there's hardly a price difference. But for you techies out there: can you advise what advantage DDR4 has over DDR3? I'm assuming speed trumps CAS latency? Most DDR4 options I've been looking at have CAS latency of 15, whereby DDR3 is right around 9. I'm going to assume that none of that really matters unless one is overclocking, which I'm not.

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #4
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 10:22:08 (permalink)
    If you're working with video... especially 3D rendering/animation (where renders can take brutally long)... you'd do best with a socket 2011-3 machine.
    This assumes you're running the CPU at equal clock-speed to socket 1151.
    You'd have two extra CPU cores (running at equal clock-speed)... and quad-channel RAM.
     
    Unless you plan to run multiple high-end video cards and load the system down with internal drives, you don't need a 1000w PS.  It's doing nothing but adding heat.
     
    EVGA motherboards would not be my choice.   
     
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #5
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 11:05:47 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry
    If you're working with video... especially 3D rendering/animation (where renders can take brutally long)... you'd do best with a socket 2011-3 machine.
    This assumes you're running the CPU at equal clock-speed to socket 1151.
    You'd have two extra CPU cores (running at equal clock-speed)... and quad-channel RAM.
     
    Unless you plan to run multiple high-end video cards and load the system down with internal drives, you don't need a 1000w PS.  It's doing nothing but adding heat.
     
    EVGA motherboards would not be my choice.   



    I don't do a much 3D rendering/animation, just playing around and a few small snippets for projects.  But I do quite a bit of video stuff. Honestly, I was perfectly happy with the performance of my current setup in regards to video. Sure, some After Effects renders took a while, but no big deal.
     
    I don't plan on running two GPUs but I currently have six drives in my system (2 SSD, 4 HDD) and I'll likely add a couple more. 
     
    No, I won't be getting another EVGA board. Right now I'm looking at the Asus Z-170A. Any experience with the Asus GPUs? I was planning on getting the EVGA GeForce GTX 970 but I can get a bundle deal with that Asus board and the Asus GeForce 970. I've always bought EVGA video cards because I'd never had issues and they performed great, but I'm assuming the Asus would be a fine option? They seem to be a pretty respectable manufacturer all around as far as I can tell.

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #6
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 11:44:08 (permalink)
    I recently upgraded to the ASUS GTX 970 STRIX and it has been fine. I replaced an old ASUS GTX 580, and my MB only has a PCIe 2.0 slot (the 970 is PCIe 3.0) and it runs fine, just not to full capacity. I recommend that specific model (not the "Turbo," which is designed like a jet engine). The 580 actually took two 8-pin power connectors, but the 970 only takes one (and is a much shorter unit, taking up only 2 slots in height instead of 3 - the 580 was a MASSIVE unit).
     
    As you mentioned Premiere Pro, I am not sure which version you have, but PP actually references a text file for "CUDA-capable GPUs." Basically, PP will suddenly give you a message that it is using "Mercury Playback Engine Software Only" because your GPU doesn't support it (not true). I have CS5.5 so had to update that manually, but there is a nice (somewhat long-winded) post on that here. Another point specific to the 970 is not all of the memory is the same (7/8 is "at speed" but the other 1/8 is not IIRC, although it doesn't seem to be overly important (also mentioned in that link)).

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #7
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 12:28:54 (permalink)
    mettelus
    I recently upgraded to the ASUS GTX 970 STRIX and it has been fine. I replaced an old ASUS GTX 580, and my MB only has a PCIe 2.0 slot (the 970 is PCIe 3.0) and it runs fine, just not to full capacity. I recommend that specific model (not the "Turbo," which is designed like a jet engine). The 580 actually took two 8-pin power connectors, but the 970 only takes one (and is a much shorter unit, taking up only 2 slots in height instead of 3 - the 580 was a MASSIVE unit).
     
    As you mentioned Premiere Pro, I am not sure which version you have, but PP actually references a text file for "CUDA-capable GPUs." Basically, PP will suddenly give you a message that it is using "Mercury Playback Engine Software Only" because your GPU doesn't support it (not true). I have CS5.5 so had to update that manually, but there is a nice (somewhat long-winded) post on that here. Another point specific to the 970 is not all of the memory is the same (7/8 is "at speed" but the other 1/8 is not IIRC, although it doesn't seem to be overly important (also mentioned in that link)).



    This is the Asus GPU I'm looking at, believe it's same one you mentioned:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121899
     
    I'm running PPro CS6. It was running fine with my GTX 570; haven't had any of those Mercury Playback Engine messages.
     

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #8
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 12:40:45 (permalink)
    Yes, that is the same card.
     
    To save you time with the above link, my default PP directory is C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 [yours would be 6/6.0] Both of the below should be done with PP closed.
     
    There is an exe called "GPUSniffer.exe" you can run that will let you know if your card is CUDA capable (first check).
     
    However, the text file in that same directory called "cuda_supported_cards.txt" is actually what PP reads on startup to determine if your card is CUDA-capable (sorta funny actually, since GPUSniffer doesn't update this). You just need to append the "GeForce GTX 970" to that text file (if not there). Simply check the file as it exists, and you will know right away.
     
    The author of that link above does have a zip file (page 2) with an updated "cuda_supported_cards.txt" for every known CUDA card if you wish to go that route (just copy/paste the cuda_supported_cards.txt file from the zip to the directory mentioned above).
     
    Aside - FWIW, the original file on my machine looked like this (I added the red entry):
     
    GeForce GTX 285
    GeForce GTX 470
    GeForce GTX 570
    GeForce GTX 580
    Quadro CX
    Quadro FX 3700M
    Quadro FX 3800
    Quadro FX 3800M
    Quadro FX 4800
    Quadro FX 5800
    Quadro 2000
    Quadro 2000D
    Quadro 2000M
    Quadro 3000M
    Quadro 4000
    Quadro 4000M
    Quadro 5000
    Quadro 5000M
    Quadro 5010M
    Quadro 6000
    Tesla C2075
    GeForce GTX 970
     
     

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #9
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/03 12:59:53 (permalink)
    Another aside for the above... GPUSniffer should be run from the cmd prompt (as Administrator), or else it "insta-closes" on you, but changing directories is a PITA typing.
     
    In the cmd window, if you right click the icon in the upper left of the window, there is an "Edit->Paste" (at cursor) option, so you can copy/paste the directory from Windows Explorer into a "cd" (change directory) command quicker.
    1. Launch cmd as Admin
    2. Type "cd " at the prompt (space after the cd)
    3. Right click the icon in the upper left "Edit->Paste" the directory from above
    4. Hit Enter, make sure the directory change took
    5. Type "GPUSniffer"

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #10
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/06 00:43:49 (permalink)
    Thanks man. After I got everything up and running with the new hardware and reactivated CS6, I did get that message when I launched PPro. Just added GeForce GTX 970 in the text file, saved it, and done deal. Launched without a hitch.
     
    Thanks for anticipating the issue and pointing it out! I probably would've been slamming my head against the wall otherwise.

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #11
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/06 01:11:56 (permalink)
    You're welcome. Having just experienced that it was fresh in my mind as soon as you mentioned Premiere Pro. It sort of bothers me that Adobe didn't think ahead to update that file automatically for users - I am such a huge fan of "simple"

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #12
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/06 01:24:49 (permalink)
    Kinda feels like they've dumped any interest in CS6 now that they've got their Creative Cloud going, which I hate. Adobe products have always been expensive, but "back in the day" a person could save up and buy a suite (or just a few apps) and have them for life. Now, you're looking at $50/month FOREVER if you want to keep using the stuff. That's $600 a year! 
     
    That's what I like so much about Cakewalk's model. Keep paying as long as you want, but if you ever decide to walk away, you still have something to show for it.

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #13
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/06 09:23:11 (permalink)
    I use half a dozen of the applications from Creative Cloud.
     
    To maintain a Creative Suite over a 5-year period:
    Initial purchase $3000
    Four years of upgrades $2400 ($200 each upgrade - upgraded every two years)
    Total cost to own: $5400
     
    Creative Cloud for 5-years:
    Total cost to subscribe: $3000
     
    You have to be comfortable knowing you don't own anything and accept that you'll always have a payment (similar to leasing a car).  If you can deal with those conditions, the Creative Cloud isn't a bad deal.  
    For me, it's significantly less expensive than owning.  
    I use the CC for business... so it's pretty easy to justify the expense.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #14
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/06 12:20:39 (permalink)
    OEM copies of CS5.5 and CS6 are still available if you look hard enough, roughly $300 last I checked.
     
    Interestingly, when I upgraded to 5.5 I asked Adobe directly about these and they said they are legitimate copies, but do not qualify you for upgrades. I paid $1300 to upgrade, but CC was right around the corner and Adobe knew this. I could have saved $1000 and just bought an OEM copy.
     
    Not that much has changed to justify "not owning" it, and Adobe knows this, hence the new model. Hell, I could rollback to Word97 and miss nothing in what I use Word for. Many software programs are in this same boat now since they have crossed over into "maturity."
     
    An ironic part with graphics is that the need to alter something "right now" comes up often, and is one tool not readily available in Windows. I have a 20+ year-old version of Paint Shop Pro 5 that installs to a directory, small (28MB-ish), and can be carried on a thumb drive. For business presentations, this has saved many people's bacon as I can edit in a couple minutes graphics on any machine I am sitting at (no installation required). The "OMG, how did you do that?"s are rather priceless.

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #15
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/07 23:22:20 (permalink)
    I purchased CS6 Production Premium back in 2012 or so...technically, it was purchased by my video production company. (No need to be impressed, we barely got any work and was totally a side job.) I believe it was about $1600 at the time, so kinda spendy. That business is no more, so my producing partner took the camera package and I took the audio gear and media software.
     
    So from a business standpoint, the cost of Creative Cloud is completely reasonable. $50/month is nothing. But it's just me and I don't get a ton of video work, so it's just hard for me to justify dropping $50/month on software I won't use that often. So I just gotta hope that CS6 installs on Windows 10 without any problems, if not, I'm SOL!

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #16
    streckfus
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 339
    • Joined: 2013/11/22 15:29:47
    • Location: Minneapolis, MN
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/08 21:44:03 (permalink)
    mettelus
    Yes, that is the same card.
     
    To save you time with the above link, my default PP directory is C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 [yours would be 6/6.0] Both of the below should be done with PP closed.
     
    There is an exe called "GPUSniffer.exe" you can run that will let you know if your card is CUDA capable (first check).
     
    However, the text file in that same directory called "cuda_supported_cards.txt" is actually what PP reads on startup to determine if your card is CUDA-capable (sorta funny actually, since GPUSniffer doesn't update this). You just need to append the "GeForce GTX 970" to that text file (if not there). Simply check the file as it exists, and you will know right away.
     
    The author of that link above does have a zip file (page 2) with an updated "cuda_supported_cards.txt" for every known CUDA card if you wish to go that route (just copy/paste the cuda_supported_cards.txt file from the zip to the directory mentioned above).
     
    Aside - FWIW, the original file on my machine looked like this (I added the red entry):
     
    GeForce GTX 285
    GeForce GTX 470
    GeForce GTX 570
    GeForce GTX 580
    Quadro CX
    Quadro FX 3700M
    Quadro FX 3800
    Quadro FX 3800M
    Quadro FX 4800
    Quadro FX 5800
    Quadro 2000
    Quadro 2000D
    Quadro 2000M
    Quadro 3000M
    Quadro 4000
    Quadro 4000M
    Quadro 5000
    Quadro 5000M
    Quadro 5010M
    Quadro 6000
    Tesla C2075
    GeForce GTX 970
     
     




    So this is weird. Finally got Windows 10 up and running, all of my audio stuff installed and configured, now I've moved on to CS6. Everything installed fine, and while I had several bouts with PPro launching (that dreaded splash screen crash when it stalls out reading plugins) eventually it started up, and of course, this being a fresh install, I got that message again.
     
    So I went into the folder, opened up the text file, added GeForce GTX 970, and attempted to save it...access denied. Huh? I had no problems doing this on my previous install. I disabled "read only" for the Premiere Pro folder and tried again, no go.
     
    Anytime I do anything with moving .dll files or what not I'll get the prompt to execute the command as administrator and to this day I've never been locked out of my own PC, but there's a first time for everything I guess.
     
    So I ended up going into the Security tab on that folders properties and had to manually give myself permission to modify the folder/contents. Then it worked.
     
    Weird.

    Sonar Platinum | Win 10 Pro/64-bit | Core i7-6700K | 32GB DDR4 2400 RAM | ASUS Z170-AR | ASUS GeForce GTX 970 | Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 | Yamaha HS8s
    #17
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Proposed New PC Specs 2016/05/09 00:43:10 (permalink)
    The first part is just how Adobe does its VST scan. Each plugin that crashes it Adobe "remembers" but you have to startup (repeatedly) until it finds them all.
     
    As to the file, yes, that is actually a Windows security measure (even on 7/8) to prevent programs from "just modifying" contents in those directories. You actually want this enabled, and a quicker method of modifying a file in those directories is to leave Windows Explorer tiled (so you can see the desktop a bit), open the file from Explorer (as you would normally), then save to desktop. When you copy/move from the desktop back to Explorer, you will automatically get a popup saying "You need Administrator rights to perform this action. Continue?" Then just click "Yes" and done.

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #18
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1