pdarg
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Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
I believe that I may have asked this question sometime in the past, but I would like to re-visit this issue.
When exporting a stereo mix (for mastering, etc.), is it preferable to export a mix [with audio recorded at 24 bit] to 24 bit audio, or to 32 bit float?
My understanding is that Sonar processes a mix in 32 float and then dithers on export. Doing a test with two files exported to 24 and 32 reveals a very slight difference in sound files WAY down below the level of hearing perception, but still, if there is a better way to go here, I would like to hear persons weigh in on this issue.
Thanks.
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noynekker
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/07 23:45:34
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If you're sending the exported file out for mastering, or doing further mastering yourself, Sonar's dithering should be turned off, as dithering needs to be done on the very last stage of the mastering process.
I have had great results exporting to 32 bit, then using the 32 bit file to master from.
If the final objective of your process is a CD, then 24 bit is probably enough . . . then you dither it down to 16 bit.
. . . but exporting it as 32 bit leaves some flexibility, if a CD is not the intended final outcome.
I think it's more important to have the overall levels right when exporting for mastering purposes, as the mastering process needs to have some headroom to actually be able to apply mastering type effects, such as limiting and equalization.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 07:20:20
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Yeah, use 32 bit float.
I do.
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Sycraft
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 07:24:18
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If there's going to be further processing then 32-bit float makes sense since 32-bit FP is what most audio processing is done in (or sometimes 64-bit FP). So if you take it down to 24-bit integer you are just rounding off things unnecessarily. With iterative math, which is what audio processing is, you want to maintain precision until you have done all the calculation you are going to do and you have the result, only then do you round.
Now does it actually make an audible difference? Probably not, but unless space is a concern just stick with floating point data.
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pdarg
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 11:03:55
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The end format is MP3.
I suppose 32 bit float retains more information and does not dither(?).
I use the LAME encoder from there to create a 44.1khz/256KPS MP3.
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drewfx1
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 13:02:25
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2016/05/08 17:45:31
Though it likely makes no difference in the real world, 32bit float ensures that there is no clipping (not that there should be anyway, but...) and preserves any low level information.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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John
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 15:24:30
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I don't use 32 bit float for a file. I can't say if there is any sonic difference due to the fact no audio interface supports it. So all my exported audio is 24 bits. If I wish to go to CD it is 16 bit.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 17:04:27
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John, we're not talking about the ability to play a 32 bit file, it's about having the ability to preserve as much detail as possible with virtually no errors in the maths when exporting/bouncing.
64 bit is of course even more accurate and I always engage this option.
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John
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 17:51:37
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I understand fully. I just don't see or hear how it matters. In a way this is simply theoretical. What I mean, without a way to monitor this we can only assume it has significance. At least enough to warrant the added bits. I think 24 bits is plenty for most audio processing purposes. Yet 32 bits FP will use up a lot more disk space. If it is a noticeable improvement than it will be worth it. I just have no way to know that for sure. If someone compares the two there is no actual way to make a comparison. Both files will have be at 24 bits to hear them.
I know this is contrary to the ideas CW has been promoting I just have no evidence it actually matters. I also think a lot of the errors we see listed here on this forum is due to systems that really can't do full 32 bit FP on large projects. But that is just a notion I have.
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John
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 17:51:37
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I understand fully. I just don't see or hear how it matters. In a way this is simply theoretical. What I mean, without a way to monitor this we can only assume it has significance. At least enough to warrant the added bits. I think 24 bits is plenty for most audio processing purposes. Yet 32 bits FP will use up a lot more disk space. If it is a noticeable improvement than it will be worth it. I just have no way to know that for sure. If someone compares the two there is no actual way to make a comparison. Both files will have be at 24 bits to hear them.
I know this is contrary to the ideas CW has been promoting I just have no evidence it actually matters. I also think a lot of the errors we see listed here on this forum is due to systems that really can't do full 32 bit FP on large projects. But that is just a notion I have.
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drewfx1
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 20:07:49
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Bristol_Jonesey
64 bit is of course even more accurate and I always engage this option.
By this point it's only more accurate in theory as it's almost impossible for 32bit floating point not to preserve everything actually useful.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 20:45:34
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2016/05/11 18:17:51
If you are sending your mix out for mastering, why not just check the mastering studio for what format/resolution they recommend? Generally, if you are entrusting your files to a specialist, he will probably not want them altered from the format used when mixing. Although there is some processing done in mastering, work is relatively limited and typically on only two tracks, so the chance of significant rounding errors is pretty small and a massive pile of bits is probably not going to add much in the way of insurance. It certainly does not make sense to send out a file that is rendered at higher resolution than used in mixing.
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John T
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/08 20:58:01
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I've never been asked for a 32 bit file, across work done for record labels, video games and TV.
Typically, as things stand right now, mastering engineers will ask for a 24 bit file.
It's important not to confuse the internal processing bit depth with the bit depth going on at the master bus output. That's dependent on your project bit depth, and if you export at the project bit depth, then you are exporting what you've been listening to as you've been working.
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tenfoot
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/09 01:06:07
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I agree with Johns x 2. I have never been asked for nor had cause to export @ 32bit. I understand the theory behind it but am sceptical of any real world advantage beyond confirmational bias. Still - if it makes you happy:)
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pwalpwal
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/09 05:22:11
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slartabartfast
If you are sending your mix out for mastering, why not just check the mastering studio for what format/resolution they recommend?
^^^^ this
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pdarg
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/09 14:58:24
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Ah, conflicting opinions.
I am "on the fence" with this. The audible difference is very slight.
For now, I am mixing down to 32 bit (my understanding is that the mix process dithers on a 24 bit export from its internal 32 bit processing state?).
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drewfx1
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/09 15:40:27
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pdarg
Ah, conflicting opinions.
I am "on the fence" with this. The audible difference is very slight.
The only way you will get an audible difference is if you are either clipping or are boosting the level by tens of dB's after export.
my understanding is that the mix process dithers on a 24 bit export from its internal 32 bit processing state?
If you have dither enabled on export, then it dithers. But dither at 24bit levels is not remotely close to being audible (unless you are boosting the level by tens of dB's after export).
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Sycraft
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/09 15:45:41
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2016/05/09 22:04:42
If you hear an audible difference, the issue is probably what you are listening to the wav files in. If you use Winamp or windows media player or the like it can have issues with playing floating point files incorrectly because of how it interprets them. In something like Wavelab or Sound Forge they should sound the same, as your soundcard can only handle 24-bit output anyhow (and realistically resolves only maybe 20-21 bits).
In terms of the actual difference, both files have 24-bits of precision, a 32-bit FP file just maintains that over a large range of volumes. So if you take a 24-bit file, and cut the volume 24dB, you then only have 20-bits of precision in that signal since the 4 most significant bits are now silence. With a 32-bit file, the 24-bits of precision is maintained down to a very low level. Likewise a floating point signal can exceed 0dBFS whereas an integer one can't and will clip.
However no matter what, it is getting converted down when it gets played back. So all the extra precision and so on doesn't matter during playback. Rather it is for processing. Any time you round something down when doing math you are introducing quantization error so you want to round only on the last step of an operation. Hence why DAWs n' plugins do everything in floating point.
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pdarg
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/09 22:07:25
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Okay - I agree.
So, since there is at least one last step of processing of the WAV mix file (after it is exported from Sonar), it should remain in 32 bit until it is put into its final format (in this case, an MP3 file).
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Sycraft
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/10 02:42:06
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It isn't important that it remain 32-bit, but yes I'd leave it as 32-bit until you are done mastering. I don't send my stuff off for professional mastering, since I'm just toying around, but my process is to export to 32-bit float from Sonar and load that in to Sound Forge for mastering. Once I'm all done, the last step is to dither down to 24-bit. I then convert that to MP3, FLAC, or whatever I'm going to have it as finally. It is not necessary to do it that way, but it is just additional insurance against any quantization error.
Same reason I have Sonar run using its 64-bit mixing engine. It isn't necessary, and I'm betting most files would not just audibly null but bit-null if you compared 32-bit vs 64-bit, however the extra precision doesn't cost me anything I don't have plenty of (CPU and memory) and it is insurance against any kind of quantization (32-bit is 24-bit precision, 8-bit range, 64-bit is 53-bit precision 11-bit range).
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pdarg
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/10 16:51:48
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Just curious: why would you dither a mastered WAV from 32 to 24 bit before converting to MP3?
What's the advantage in doing that?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/10 17:36:50
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Well you should always dither when going from a higher bit depth to a lower one.
There is no interface capable of playing back a 32 bit file so in the example above, 24 bit must be his final master.
If it was for CD release you'd dither from 32 bit to 16 bit with a 44.1KHz sample rate, like I do
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Jyri T.
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/11 12:36:38
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There seem to be some comments that confuse export bit depth with internal mixing word length. There is no audible difference to me between 24 bit and 32 bit export bit depth yet I always use the 32 bit option when exporting a mix to be mastered just in case.
Always dither when going for a shorter bit length ... never dither otherwise.
Always use the 64 bit internal world length if possible. That does make a difference.
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drewfx1
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/11 12:53:07
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Jyri T.
Always use the 64 bit internal world length if possible. That does make a difference.
If you include an "imaginary difference" as a difference. Most of the "32 bit errors" everyone worries about don't ever make it to the 24 bit output and simply aren't audible in the real world regardless.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Jyri T.
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/11 15:36:43
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drewfx1
Jyri T.
Always use the 64 bit internal world length if possible. That does make a difference.
If you include an "imaginary difference" as a difference. Most of the "32 bit errors" everyone worries about don't ever make it to the 24 bit output and simply aren't audible in the real world regardless.
I beg to disagree --- if you have a hefty track count ant a ton of fx. It adds up at some point so that there is a difference. If you have a reasonably small amount of tracks and effects, you're right.
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drewfx1
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Re: Export Bit Depth: 24 or 32 Float?
2016/05/11 17:45:14
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Jyri T.
drewfx1
Jyri T.
Always use the 64 bit internal world length if possible. That does make a difference.
If you include an "imaginary difference" as a difference. Most of the "32 bit errors" everyone worries about don't ever make it to the 24 bit output and simply aren't audible in the real world regardless.
I beg to disagree --- if you have a hefty track count ant a ton of fx. It adds up at some point so that there is a difference.
If you have a reasonably small amount of tracks and effects, you're right.
You are disagreeing based on what? The reality is the errors simply don't accumulate to the point of being any kind of issue in the real world. We can go through it in detail if need be.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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