KyRo
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Does the Normalize function not adjust volume evenly?...
Hi, guys. So I've got a vocal track with some fairly dynamic sections (some parts too quiet, others recorded too hot), and before I get into the weeds with any manual gain adjustments, I wanted to run Normalize on the whole track just to get the loudest parts down a desirable level (without using compression). I was under the impression that the way normalization works is that it scans all of the selected audio, finds the loudest peak, determines the needed amount of dB by which to meet the desired goal, and then adjusts all of the audio evenly by that determined amount... right? Well, after I ran Normalize on the track, I found that some clips are not being adjusted by the same amount as others... For instance, there are two adjacent (but separate) clips. After normalization, one of the clips went from -13.6 dB to -15 dB (my target peak). That's a reduction of 1.4 dB (or 10.29%). However, the other clip went from -16.9 dB to -19.5 db, a reduction of 2.6 dB (or 15.39%). Clearly not the same amount of reduction. So what's going on? Is the normalization not working correctly (perhaps because the clips are separate)? Am I just not properly understanding how it's supposed to work? Any input is appreciated! SONAR X3e Producer Win 7 64-bit
post edited by dimelives1 - May 11, 16 8:41 PM
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bitflipper
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 11, 16 7:30 PM
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Nope, normalize doesn't work that way. What it does is raise the level across the board so that the highest peak hits your target level. The relative volumes don't change. SONAR does not contain a tool for doing what you want. There are some third-party plugins that attempt it (e.g. MAutoVolume from Meldaproduction) but they'll only get you into the ballpark. FWIW, this is my two-step method. First, I insert BlueCat's Gain plugin and then automate it so each clip or phrase sounds about right to my ear. Then I apply compression after.
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KyRo
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 11, 16 7:40 PM
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bitflipper The relative volumes don't change.
See, that's why I'm confused, because the relative volumes DID change. Before normalization, the difference between the two clips was 3.3 dB. After normalization, it was 4.5 dB. That's what originally tipped me off that something wasn't right. Your explanation of how it's supposed to work is exactly how I thought (just put much more concisely than my attempt to spell it out). So what could be going on?
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clintmartin
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 11, 16 7:41 PM
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Hornet's Autogain Pro will do this and it's cheap.
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KyRo
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 0:37 PM
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Thanks, Clint. But I'm not trying to do anything advanced here. Sorry if my original post wasn't clear. All I'm trying to do is adjust the volume in a track so that the highest peak hits a specified point. To the best of my understanding, that is what basic normalization is supposed to do. But for some reason, in my case, it's not adjusting the levels by an equal amount across the board. I'm guessing it's because there are numerous separate clips in the track and I'm trying to apply normalization to all of them at once (if I do them one by one, every clip will reach the specified peak level, and that's not what I want). I can bounce all the clips into one, and then it works right, but I wish to keep the clips separated. I guess I can achieve the same result (non-destructively) by adjusting the track's Gain knob by the necessary amount for the peak to hit the desired level. I was just looking for a way to do it through processing. It probably wouldn't be a problem with normalization if my track wasn't all chopped up.
post edited by dimelives1 - May 12, 16 1:07 AM
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WDI
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 0:53 PM
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You would probably have to bounce the track to create one region then apply normalization.
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57Gregy
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 10:08 AM
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"there are numerous separate clips in the track and I'm trying to apply normalization to all of them at once" That would be my guess. The normalization is affecting each clip individually based on each clip's peak. You could Bounce To Clips, Normalize, then split the long clip into the original shorter clips.
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KyRo
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 3:11 PM
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57Gregy The normalization is affecting each clip individually based on each clip's peak.
You would think that would be the case, if it didn't affect all the selected clips based on one universal peak, but I can't make heads or tails of what it's actually doing. One clip will see a reduction so that its peak hits the desired level, but then the next clip is decreased by a disproportional amount, and comes nowhere near the peak target. *Shrug* 57Gregy You could Bounce To Clips, Normalize, then split the long clip into the original shorter clips.
I considered that route, but it just feels like too much extra work for something that ought to be so simple. I'm thinking I will just adjust the track's gain via the gain knob to conform to the target peak level. At this point, that seems like the most straightforward, efficient, and simple method to achieve essentially the same result.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 4:11 PM
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Another question. Where in the signal chain is the normalization applied? If different clips are routed through effects or busses/patch points that may involve some gain adjustments is the normalization applied pre or post? If any of the intervening effects are using a gain adjustment with a different algorithm than the overall normalization that could cause unexpected results. It sounds like the safest thing to try is to normalize only a fully rendered project, but then, it would be an enormous amount of work (or impossible) to try to get it all unscrambled again.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 4:20 PM
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I'm almost entirely certain normalizing is done on the raw wave data pre everything. It would be half useless otherwise.
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tlw
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 4:46 PM
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If you want a number of clips to have the same maximum peak value select each clip individually, one at a time, and normalise each clip individually to the same target value. A slow job if there's a lot of clips but the only way to get them all to the same peak value using normalising.
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KyRo
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 12, 16 5:38 PM
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slartabartfast Another question. Where in the signal chain is the normalization applied? If different clips are routed through effects or busses/patch points that may involve some gain adjustments is the normalization applied pre or post? If any of the intervening effects are using a gain adjustment with a different algorithm than the overall normalization that could cause unexpected results.
That's a very good point to check for. But, as Sander alluded to, it was applied directly to the raw recording's clips in the source track, with no busses, patches, or effects in the signal chain. tlw If you want a number of clips to have the same maximum peak value select each clip individually, one at a time, and normalise each clip individually to the same target value. A slow job if there's a lot of clips but the only way to get them all to the same peak value using normalising.
Thanks, Tim. But that's not what I'm trying to do. All I was attempting was to lower all of the track's audio down uniformly so that the highest peak of the entire track meets the desired value (i.e., basic normalization, as I understand it).
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Kylotan
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 13, 16 10:28 AM
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☄ Helpfulby dimelives1 May 13, 16 2:44 PM
Sorry to sidestep the question but I would recommend forgetting normalisation and just use Clip Gain to get things sounding broadly the same. Normalise has to work with the peaks and they are rarely the most important gauge of how loud the clip as a whole is.
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MondoArt
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 17, 16 3:43 PM
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Kylotan Sorry to sidestep the question but I would recommend forgetting normalisation and just use Clip Gain to get things sounding broadly the same. Normalise has to work with the peaks and they are rarely the most important gauge of how loud the clip as a whole is.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 17, 16 4:32 PM
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☄ Helpfulby dimelives1 May 18, 16 4:37 PM
IIRC you can jump directly to a peak. Check out how high it is and then use Process/Apply Effect/Gain to increase or decrease all clips by the same amount. That's the quickest way I can think of that would keep your separate clips intact yet would change gain uniformly to hit a specified single peak.
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ashtangakasha
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Re: Does the Normalize function not adjust volume equally?...
May 17, 16 5:47 PM
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I think Sanderxpander has it. Just see how much attenuation is needed for the loudest track, select all tracks, and adjust down by that amount. Otherwise "normalizing" doesn't really have any meaning "across tracks." Normalizing multiple tracks just calls for a batch normalization of each track, and they don't all need to be normalized by the same amount.
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