Helpful ReplyProper Use of Monitor Speakers

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Johnbee58
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2016/05/19 08:34:21 (permalink)

Proper Use of Monitor Speakers

Hey!

I know this will seem like elementary home recording 101 to most of you guys and it's ridiculous for someone who's been at this as long as me, but I really only got my studio up to "perfection" only a few weeks ago and for so long I was mixing with headphones and, well, you know what I mean.

With only a small bit of "fixing" (ie, need a small bit of deep curtains for my three small windows) to do, my studio should be acoustically perfect.  As you may know, I have a pair of JBL LSR308 studio monitors.  My question is: How do I use them effectively to get my mixes the best they can be?

I can only get them about three feet apart from each other because my room is only 5'x12' and I need to use the short wall.  The bass traps from the Auralex kit come out from the wall so much that there isn't enough room to spread them out any further,  Also, on the back of each monitor there is a Hi pass and a lo pass filter.

Should I get the mixes to balance out and sound the best in these speakers?  What am I looking to hear from them in a room that should now be as acoustically fit as it can be?  How should I set the filters?

Thanks so much for your education.
Below is a pic of my setup from the front of the room.



John B.

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
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 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/19 09:57:12 (permalink)
Don't worry about the distance between the speakers. Three feet may not be ideal, but you'll be OK as long as you don't sit too far back from them when you mix. I'd angle them outward a bit from the position in your photo. They have a wide-enough dispersion that you can get away with not having the tweeters aimed precisely at your ears.
 
Your biggest issue is that the speakers are rear-ported and their backsides are aimed at room corners. This will cause bass buildup beyond what your traps can absorb, which may result in bass-light mixes. For that reason, you may want to utilize the speakers' HPFs to take a little low end out - that's exactly why they're there.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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batsbrew
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/19 10:21:31 (permalink)
i have the 305's...
good little monitors.
 
i set up an equilateral triangle, measured from center of top of speaker,
and at the sitting point, i mark an X on the floor with tape, and sit just inside of that.. my sweet spot.
 
with your tight arrangement, you will end up with a VERY small sweet spot...
make sure your ears are about as high as your tweeters
 
bit is right about the problems with the corners.....
pulling out away from the back wall as far as you can, will help.

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batsbrew
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/19 10:41:58 (permalink)

Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#4
bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/19 11:24:44 (permalink)
^^^ good reference. 
 
John Sayers is the guy you'd hire if you had a the budget for a great pro studio. Some good free information from Mr. Sayers here. It was written 20 years ago, but the laws of physics haven't changed since then.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/21 09:33:23 (permalink)
Thanks guys!
In hindsight, maybe I should've gotten the 305s, but I wasn't thinking acoustic treatment at the time I bought them.
So, bit, are you saying max the Hi Pass filters and minimize the lo pass filters?
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/21 14:48:15 (permalink)
There should be controls on the back to roll off the bass. It may be labeled in decibels or might just be a knob that makes you guess. You probably want to roll off 6 dB if that's an option. The trick, if the controls aren't indented, is getting both speakers to match one another. Luckily that's not critical for bass frequencies. I would not change the low-pass filter, though.
 
If you find that when you play your mixes elsewhere are too bass heavy or too bass light, let that inform you about making further tweaks to the speakers' filters. The general rule of thumb is whatever your mixes have too much of is what you're not hearing well, or conversely, whatever you mixes have too little of is what you're hearing too much of. Post a few songs on the Songs forum and let others advise you. Everyone will hear it a little differently, but there'll likely be a consensus overall if your bass levels are too far from the norm.
 
If your mixes are consistently bass-light and you've already turned the HPF as far as it will go, then you may end up adding more bass trapping in the corners. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/21 17:16:44 (permalink)
Hey, Bit!
 
The rear of my 308s have an LF Trim and an HF Trim each marked -2db, 0, +2db.  As per your advise, I have the HF at +2db and the LF at -2db.  Is this what you're recommending?
 
I don't wish to post my songs on the Song forum here because of past bad experiences.  They wouldn't review my mix.  They'd only tell me how crappy my song(s) or performances are. (Remember "Out in the Open" and J-in-saddle?).  What I would like to perhaps do (if OK with you) is PM you with a link (or links) to my songs for you to hear privately.
 
Thanks
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Enigmatic
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/21 17:56:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Johnbee58 2016/05/23 19:52:29
To be honest just listen to your favorite pro mixes on your setup. Listen critically to the frequencies and balance. That shows you a reference for what to achieve in your mixes in that particular room. So dont stress about placement and treatment. Bottom line is never mix in isolation always use reference tracks and you can mix on anything anywhere practically.
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bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/21 20:06:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Johnbee58 2016/05/23 19:52:23
Sorry about your bad experience on the Songs forum. Unfortunately, there are always a handful of trolls lurking in such forums. They're usually ignorant youngsters who don't any post songs of their own and yet somehow feel qualified to give advice anyway. Don't let that deter you! 
 
That said, Enigmatic is entirely correct: listening to your favorite commercial records on your monitoring system is far and away the best thing you can do. Over time, your brain will adapt to whatever sonic limitations your speakers and room have, and you'll gradually come to unconsciously recognize what a good mix is supposed to sound like on those speakers.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/21 20:24:34 (permalink)
Thanks Enig & Bit.
The advise about listening to pro mixes on my setup seems to be good advise and what many have advised me to do.  I have actually done that several times.  What I'm taking notice to is the pro mixes seem to be in kind of an "envelope" where everything all balances out to the same level.  It's kinda like everything is in a nice compact box where nothing sticks out more than everything else.  I guess this must be good use of compression.  I use compression (Boost 11 among them) but still I hear things that stick out.  This is the first time I've ever used near field monitors.  I've always done mixing on headphones in the past.  My experience with that is I can make a mix sound great in the cans but they fall apart on speakers.  Right now, my best listening environment (for my own stuff) is in my car.  EVERYTHING sounds great there.
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/23 10:22:32 (permalink)
Yes, part of it is judicious use of compression, but mostly what you're describing is just a good mix,
 
Mixing is basically the process of striking a balance between all the elements. Mix engineers used to be called "balance engineers". Only one element should stick out of a mix at any point in time, such as a lead vocal or a lead instrument. Everything else should get out of the way, augmenting and supporting the currently-focused element without distracting from it.
 
But balance, especially frequency balance, is an ongoing challenge. You'll never achieve a statistically flat, uncolored sound without spending a frightening amount of money and constructing a large, purpose-built room.
 
All systems lie in some way. The trick is knowing exactly what lies your room and speakers are telling you, so you can work around them.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/23 13:12:00 (permalink)
bitflipper
 
But balance, especially frequency balance, is an ongoing challenge. You'll never achieve a statistically flat, uncolored sound without spending a frightening amount of money and constructing a large, purpose-built room.
 



So then maybe I should just give up now and find another hobby because I'm not prepared nor able to spend a frightening amount of money to achieve anywhere near a professional sound. I've spent over $2000.00 this past year alone to improve my sound.  The bank is officially broken for me.

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/23 13:46:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Johnbee58 2016/05/23 19:51:48
Johnbee58
Thanks Enig & Bit.
 What I'm taking notice to is the pro mixes seem to be in kind of an "envelope" where everything all balances out to the same level.  It's kinda like everything is in a nice compact box where nothing sticks out more than everything else.  I guess this must be good use of compression.  I use compression (Boost 11 among them) but still I hear things that stick out. 
JB




If what you describe is the waveform looking like a solid brick, not all find it ideal. A waveform with no "spikes" usually means no dynamics, either, but that's the trend of the day. If you take some stuff from the 70's as reference, you'll see totally different waveforms.
I believe you don't need to spend more money to get about pro sounding mixes, just more practice. Very often the important desicions are made doing the arrangement, not only when selecting the FX. And do start with volume envelopes before compression. Compress in moderate steps starting from the tracks>buses>Master Bus. And do remember, that sometimes less FX means more effect.
 
I'm a complete amateur myself, struggling forward with moderate tools and a room far from perfect, and mastering no musical instruments, but like the blind bird, I do think I find juicy worms now and then.

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robbyk
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/23 13:55:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Johnbee58 2016/05/23 19:51:54
Johnbee58
So then maybe I should just give up now and find another hobby because I'm not prepared nor able to spend a frightening amount of money to achieve anywhere near a professional sound.

I'm nowhere near capable of producing pro sounding audio worthy of the songs forum (yet), compared to many of those on these forums. and I have little or no spending money so I'm stuck in the mud.
 
But I think you like me should never give up. Like Kalle Rantaahoo says, a juicy worm appears now and then, a diamond in the rough. For me, it is all about the journey, usually made in tiny steps of hallelujah moments :)

"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is."
 
Best, Robby K 
 
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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/24 16:39:07 (permalink)
Kalle Rantaaho
 
If what you describe is the waveform looking like a solid brick, not all find it ideal. A waveform with no "spikes" usually means no dynamics, either, but that's the trend of the day. If you take some stuff from the 70's as reference, you'll see totally different waveforms.
I believe you don't need to spend more money to get about pro sounding mixes, just more practice. Very often the important desicions are made doing the arrangement, not only when selecting the FX. And do start with volume envelopes before compression. Compress in moderate steps starting from the tracks>buses>Master Bus. And do remember, that sometimes less FX means more effect.
 
I'm a complete amateur myself, struggling forward with moderate tools and a room far from perfect, and mastering no musical instruments, but like the blind bird, I do think I find juicy worms now and then.




Is there a way to do the envelope thing in Sonar?
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/25 10:03:42 (permalink)
Johnbee58
bitflipper
 
But balance, especially frequency balance, is an ongoing challenge. You'll never achieve a statistically flat, uncolored sound without spending a frightening amount of money and constructing a large, purpose-built room.
 



So then maybe I should just give up now and find another hobby because I'm not prepared nor able to spend a frightening amount of money to achieve anywhere near a professional sound. I've spent over $2000.00 this past year alone to improve my sound.  The bank is officially broken for me.




My comment was meant to encourage, not discourage you! 
 
It's all about mitigating unavoidable limitations: the room, the speakers, acoustic treatments, even your own auditory system. You can travel across town by car faster than on a bicycle, but if a bike is all you've got then are you going to cancel the trip or start pedaling?
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/25 10:57:43 (permalink)
bitflipper
It's all about mitigating unavoidable limitations: the room, the speakers, acoustic treatments, even your own auditory system. You can travel across town by car faster than on a bicycle, but if a bike is all you've got then are you going to cancel the trip or start pedaling?
 



Gotcha!  So, what you're saying is if you got the $$$ it's a lot easier.  If not, you just have to work at it a bit more, but it can still be done.
 


Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/25 14:18:13 (permalink)
EVERYTHING is easier if you've got a lot of money. You don't even have to bother educating yourself, you just hire somebody who's already gone to the trouble.
 
For the rest of us, we have to figure stuff out bit by bit. 
 
When that process starts to feel burdensome, remind yourself that you have tools George Martin and the Beatles would have been extremely jealous of. They did amazing things with far less than what we take for granted today. So yes, it can be done.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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MakerDP
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/25 16:58:20 (permalink)
Johnbee58
The advise about listening to pro mixes on my setup seems to be good advise and what many have advised me to do.  I have actually done that several times.  What I'm taking notice to is the pro mixes seem to be in kind of an "envelope" where everything all balances out to the same level.  It's kinda like everything is in a nice compact box where nothing sticks out more than everything else.  I guess this must be good use of compression.  I use compression (Boost 11 among them) but still I hear things that stick out.  This is the first time I've ever used near field monitors. 
 
JB



RUN ...don't walk... and go buy this book... http://cambridge-mt.com/MixingSecrets.htm
 
Pay the extra money for same-day or overnight delivery if you have to! Or get it on Kindle/Play Books so you have it immediately!
 
Read it, highlight it, read it again, use the practice songs he provides on his website (literally hundreds) to practice practice practice his techniques!!! Make sure you play his sample files on your system to help you understand what the deficiencies are in your setup (yes, every system has them.) Then start practicing on your own stuff.
 
Don't beat yourself up over the chapter on nearfield monitors though. He HATES ported monitors. You have what you have - no need go and buy new ones. The key is understanding how your room and monitors color your mixes and practicing how to compensate for that.
 
Three things transformed my mixing almost overnight to a higher plane of quality...
1) Addressing my mixing room's modes and reflections as best as my budget allows
2) Proper gain-staging/mix-bus routing BEFORE you even touch your faders
3) That book
 
Compression is part of the equation for a balanced mix but this book will show you how in some cases you may not even need it if you employ a few easy pre-mixing strategies.
 
You are on the right track trying to fix your room acoustics, but you will never get it "perfect" - just closer to ideal. Auralex foam "bass traps" are a GREAT start but they will never fully address all of your room-mode issues at low frequencies. Do what your budget allows and move on.
 
As far as your monitor placement goes, if you want to spread them out a little more, move your whole mixing desk back off the wall a bit so they clear your bass traps. It looks like maybe only six to eight inches will let you do that.
 
Hope this helps! Have fun!!!
 
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jonboper
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/27 08:56:57 (permalink)
Money isn't everything...I have no money, what most would consider to be a terrible monitoring environment, and an obsession with music production. The result? I've made a lot of music that I love. I don't have many listeners, but the listeners I have tell me that I've been getting better at the mixing and mastering parts of production album by album. I bet that if I started out with an amazing setup that still would've been the case. Don't let your budgetary limitations or the disinterest of the world get in your way if you really want to make music.

http://smaltmine.bandcamp.com/
https://booleanoperators.bandcamp.com/
 
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MakerDP
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/27 11:49:29 (permalink)
That's right jonboper, money can not buy the experience and skill that comes from deliberate practice.
 
BUT, strategic spending of the money your budget allows for will definitely make your deliberate practice more productive and the experience more easily gained. Sometimes even a tiny bit of money invested in a new "toy" can spark new creativity as well.
 
You would be shocked at how much a even a single blowout-priced Auralex treatment set will improve your mixing environment (Musicians Friend was recently selling a discontinued set for about $129) or a even a $30 investment in a book (like Mixing Secrets) can fine-tune your deliberate practicing and almost overnight noticeably improve your skills.
 
If you really do have NO money, then you are absolutely correct. Do the best you can with what you have and above all HAVE FUN DOING IT!!!
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Johnbee58
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/27 13:30:07 (permalink)
Thanks Maker & Jonb!  Your tips are very valid.
I'm not exactly flat broke but I feel as if I've spent enough on the music gear for a while.  I have to tighten the belt because I'm retired and on a fixed income.  I just bought the Scott Garrigus book on Sonar X3 Power, and I'll take your advise on the Mixing Secrets book but right now I'm a bit strapped having to also need to buy supplies for my yard and garden.  My wife and I are in the process of beautifying our yard (it's beautiful.  The envy of the neighborhood.  I'm sooooooooooooo proud), but there will still be room for music.  It's just that I need to take a break.  Oh, and I also recently bought Izotope's new Vocalsynth and have definate plans for that puppy.  I told my wife that I was going from writing Pop style tunes to experimental avant guard stuff and she said "Well, you're about to lose your biggest fan if you do that".  But I love experimental stuff.  Edgar Varese appeals to me.  Some people think his stuff is too bizarre to be considered serious music, but I like him.  I also loved Zappa and the crazy stuff he did.  He's just as much an inspiration as Billy Joel is to me.
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
#23
MakerDP
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/27 23:37:01 (permalink)
Ah! Those pesky "real life" priorities! They ruin all our fun don't they?
 

#24
robbyk
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Re: Proper Use of Monitor Speakers 2016/05/28 12:22:02 (permalink)
Johnbee58
My wife and I are in the process of beautifying our yard (it's beautiful.  The envy of the neighborhood.  I'm sooooooooooooo proud), but there will still be room for music.  It's just that I need to take a break. 
 
JB

I can imagine the beauty of your place!
 
Yes, there is still room for music, I do a lot of my composing while gardening as the quiet affords me a chance to "listen" :)

"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is."
 
Best, Robby K 
 
PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAM
Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped Monitors
Software: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... 

Music 
Studio
#25
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