Resort Records
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Is Sonar an Octave Off?
This week, I was working with Moog on a synth tuning issue and realized that Sonar's Piano Roll view wasn't jiving with the conversation. When I play A4, Sonar calls it "A5." Same with the Event View, etc. According to the MIDI spec, MIDI note #69 (45h) must trigger A4 / 440 Hz - that is, the "A" above Middle C. And this complies with the Scientific Pitch Notation (SPN) system. When I play A4 on my 88-note keyboard controller, MIDI note #69 is indeed sent and recorded, but Sonar displays it as A5. To put it another way, I've always understood my keyboard (or any piano) to span A0 to C8. But Sonar labels the same notes A1 to C9. Not that it ever bothered me before (or will again), but I'm curios to know what's going on. Is it a bug? Is there a configuration option somewhere? Is my understanding of music notation/theory woefully inadequate? Any input is appreciated.
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scook
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/15 20:51:14
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☼ Best Answerby Resort Records 2016/07/18 01:03:26
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Anderton
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/15 22:14:10
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☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2016/07/17 20:33:36
There was confusion about what "middle C" was in the early days of MIDI, and that still persists because today's software has to support legacy gear.
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/16 02:35:50
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scook Set with "Base Octave for Pitches" see http://www.cakewalk.com/D...age=3&help=0x22B06
Nice one - it's always bugged me that I have to adjust my brain's octave happy place when using Sonar! Now I know how to match it to what I expect. Thanks. Grum.
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tlw
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/16 10:36:07
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Anderton There was confusion about what "middle C" was in the early days of MIDI, and that still persists because today's software has to support legacy gear.
I thought part of the issue is that as well as disagreeing about what pitch middle C is, some manufacturers decided to call the lowest C note C0 and others C1, in a similar way to how 7 bit MIDI is implemented as 0-127 or 1-128. Though 0-127 seems pretty standard these days an old book I have somewhere or other about understanding MIDI from when MIDI was new states MIDI goes 1-128.
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Wookiee
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/16 10:40:59
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/07/16 15:13:43
Just to add more confusion to the pot, I had an old Yamaha module that started at -C2 then -C1 then -C0 then C1 etc. with middle C being C3.
You can imagine the fun that caused.
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/16 12:24:01
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Wookiee Just to add more confusion to the pot, I had an old Yamaha module that started at -C2 then -C1 then -C0 then C1 etc. with middle C being C3.
You can imagine the fun that caused.
I'm comfortable with C3 being middle C. That's what I expect to see. Grum.
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rabeach
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/16 12:39:51
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Midi does not specify pitch notation e.g. C3, C4 etc.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/16 18:25:46
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rabeach Midi does not specify pitch notation e.g. C3, C4 etc.
I am pretty sure that the MIDI specification does define standard note numbers and pitches, at least relative to the definition of middle C. Middle C (C4 in scientific pitch notation, 261.625 HZ at A4 = 440) is defined as MIDI note number 60. The confusion comes from the fact that the MIDI note range can represent more notes than are present on the piano keyboard and in fact more than are actually audible. Thus if A4=440 Hz, MIDI note number 12, C0=16.35 Hz using scientific (aka American standard, aka international) pitch notation is inaudible, and MIDI note 0 is even lower at C-1=8.176 Hz. Apparently the negative standard octave number necessitated by the need to cover a range of 0-127 note numbers was more than some designers could handle, so they decided to have their instruments respond to MIDI note # 0 as C0, thus pushing middle C up to C5 in their systems. The designation of C3 for middle C in a lot of MIDI keyboards is probably due to the fact that most such keyboards are short (less than 88 keys) and thus their designers wanted the octave numbers they use to better match the center of the keyboard. If there is an inconsistency, it is not with the MIDI standard, but with the designers of DAW's and instruments failing to adhere to the most widely accepted standard musical octave notation. The fact is that there exist other inconsistent notation standards, but the use of an arabic numeral following the note letter pretty much commits you to reading it as scientific pitch notation (C4=middle C=about 260 Hz), as other traditional systems use other ways to designate the octave. Apparently Cakewalk, like many others, decided to just make up their own to avoid the troubling negative octave number. In any event, if the instrument you are sending MIDI messages to, or the DAW you are sending it from, uses a notation system in a different octave you are going to need to fix it somewhere. Sonar provides a method to fix this, and most keyboard and other controllers have an octave-shift control that does the same thing. But it is possible that you will need to actually transpose the MIDI tracks to accommodate a variety of different non-standards adopted by various instrument designers.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2016/07/16 18:56:11
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rabeach
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 09:50:28
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The Scientific Pitch Notation is the American Standard Pitch Notation. The USA has not even adopted the International System of Units (SI) so I wonder by what authority is the American Standard Pitch Notation being referred to as the Scientific Pitch Notation.:-) Scientific Pitch Notation is not a part of the midi specification. Midi specifies frequency by addressing five octaves below and above middle C and assigning midi note 60 to middle C. Nowhere is C4 specified as the pitch notation for midi note 60 or is the Scientific Pitch Notation adopted in the standard.
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tlw
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 10:13:52
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I think the basic problem is that MIDI defines notes by note number 0 to 127, but humans most easily think in terms of 12 notes per octave, the names of which keep repeating as we go through the octaves. Any music reader knows what "the C an octave above middle C" means, but to think of notes in terms of 128 numerical values is like thinking about websites as http://123.456.789.012:80 rather than www.some-domain-or-another.com, or handling large numbers in binary rather than the much easier to cope with decimal or hexadecimal. So manufacturers started referring to notes as B1, F6 etc. and the conventional use of "piano roll" MIDI editors relating to a keyboard graphic. Edited to add that the domains used are entirely fictional and there's no link code there despite to forum software pretending otherwise.
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rabeach
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 10:15:04
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I'm guessing somewhere it came down to: C0 C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6 C7 C8 C9 C10 vs C-1 C0 C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6 C7 C8 C9
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Cactus Music
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 11:33:00
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Starting my midi life with an Atari all editing was done using the numbers C1 etc. There was no Piano view,,, just the event list. You got good at working with drum parts D2-C2 and F#3 snare -Kick-hat. The values always worked until my buddy bought a Yamaha FB01. It was off by an octive. Seemed Roland and Korg stuck to normal values and Yamaha had to be different just to be different. I still have those old midi files and when I load them have to transpose the bass track. It's addictive drums that's messing with my old brain...F#3 is now a cowbell or something...
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 14:24:21
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I think Propellerhead Reason uses C3 as middle C and I had Reason before Sonar (I started with Home Studio 4 or whatever it was called). That would explain why I think Sonar is off.
Grum.
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konradh
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 16:45:21
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The tip above is fantastic, thanks. I use a lot of virtual instruments with keyswitches (most importantly, Vienna Symphonic, RealGuitar, and Hollywood Strings) and this has always been a matter of trial and error.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 18:46:08
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rabeach The Scientific Pitch Notation is the American Standard Pitch Notation. The USA has not even adopted the International System of Units (SI) so I wonder by what authority is the American Standard Pitch Notation being referred to as the Scientific Pitch Notation.:-) Scientific Pitch Notation is not a part of the midi specification. Midi specifies frequency by addressing five octaves below and above middle C and assigning midi note 60 to middle C. Nowhere is C4 specified as the pitch notation for midi note 60 or is the Scientific Pitch Notation adopted in the standard.
Sorry if my point was ambiguous. The MIDI spec is, as you note, mute about the use of octave notation. It does define a middle C note number, from which one can logically derive the octave location of the other MIDI note numbers. The confusion suffered by the OP and others comes from the fact that the notation of the correct octave by various designers of MIDI devices is not standardized to a common notation. To find such a standard, they, and the musicians of the world, would need to look outside of the MIDI spec to a widely accepted standard. There are historically a bunch of ways that octaves have been referenced including by name, location on various instruments, use of alphabetical abbreviations etc. American Standard Pitch Notation was put forth by the Acoustical Society of America in the 1930's as a simple standard using a note name followed by a number to indicate the octave, which can be easily recognized and converted to a frequency by someone who does not read music (scientists and the like). Whether this system is more scientific than say the Helmholtz system is arguable, but it is actually more widely recognized by that name than by the American Standard appellation, and is the only way you are likely to find octave notation in scientific articles. In any event, using the style of the scientific notation system but moving the middle C to C3 or C5 can only cause unnecessary confusion. There is also some confusion introduced by the use of the term scientific pitch to define an even tempered scale based on C4=256 which is favored in physics textbooks and articles because it allows all the C's to be whole numbers in the binary system. The standard accepted by most musicians is the International Standards Organization Acoustics -- Standard tuning frequency (Standard musical pitch) iso16:1975 which sets A in the treble clef to 440 Hz +or - 0.5 Hz, putting C4 at a mathmatically less attractive 261.62 Hz. Système International d’Unités (SI, International System of Units) does not include a musical pitch designation at all but uses a derived unit of frequency, the Hertz
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rabeach
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/17 23:44:49
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slartabartfast Système International d’Unités (SI, International System of Units) does not include a musical pitch designation at all but uses a derived unit of frequency, the Hertz sorry, if my humor was not obvious...
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Resort Records
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Re: Is Sonar an Octave Off?
2016/07/18 02:02:58
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Thanks, everyone. Great info and an ideal solution.
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