Helpful ReplyThird party FX

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Marshall
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2016/07/29 06:50:50 (permalink)

Third party FX

I have recently upgraded from X2 to Platinum with lifetime updates. There are so many great improvements within Sonar, I’m really pleased with the way it is running.
 
I’m not an “advanced” user, but love to make quality recordings of my own compositions. This normally is mainly audio based, typically a couple of vocal tracks, electric and/or acoustic guitars, bass, drums. For drums I use Addictive Drums 2 which I am finding provides all I need, and is much easier to compose with than BFD3 which I also own. For guitars I have S Gear, which is superb.
 
Aside from that I have no external effects, and rely on the amazing array included within Sonar. I’ve followed Craig Anderton’s tips, especially about FX chains and have started using his “Glue” FX chain on the master bus with great results.
 
My question is – are there any obvious 3rd party plugins that would provide a significant step up from what is included in Sonar? I get bombarded by emails from Waves for example, and I know their reputation is excellent. Yes, I am a hobbyist, but I still want to make my songs sound the best they can be. 
#1
Fleer
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 08:11:16 (permalink)
iZotope Alloy 2 and Ozone 7 Advanced. While you're at it, you may want to go for their Music Production Bundle. Sheer FX pleasure.

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
#2
Mesh
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 08:38:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Fleer 2016/07/29 11:30:08
IK's T-Racks are also excellent. The best way (most economical) to get them is when IK has a group buy or some other major sale (like the one going on right now). They have become my go to and it's very easy to tweak to get very good results.

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#3
cclarry
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 08:41:26 (permalink)
Ozone 7 Advanced can give you just about everything you need,
and all the Modules can be used as individual plugins...which is
a MAJOR bonus...and the Insight Metering is awesome...which
is included in 07A....

If you own 2 Izotope products you can get the Music Production
Bundle for $249, which includes 07A, Alloy, Trash & 2 Expansions,
and Nectar Production Suite...that would cover just about everything
you could possibly need...

But O7A alone is worth the price....


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dcumpian
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 08:48:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/07/29 09:24:16
Bill,
 
Sonar has you covered with EQ, compressors and effects like phasers, chorus, reverb and more. You'll also want a good limiter, which I think is provided as well (it's been a long time since I've done a completely clean install). If not, that's the only thing that might be missing.
 
Much of what makes 3rd party plugins better or worse is the workflow while using the plugin itself, and the character of the sound, which is really a product of the hardware emulation the vendor was trying to achieve. There is nothing you can't do just using Sonar's plugins. Once you get skilled at using those plugins, that is when you'll be ready to evaluate whether a 3rd party's plugin actually is better.
 
Many beginners and hobbyists assume that more expensive plugins will make your music sound better. I've been there myself, and it simply isn't true, as long as the plugins used are, at the very least, transparent. Just learning to hear what compression does takes time.
 
Regards,
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
My music:
http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
#5
kennywtelejazz
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 10:08:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2016/07/29 10:35:06
I happen to agree with Dan 100 %  .
 
Even thought I don't have anywhere near his level of production chops . yet.....

I feel he is offering you super valuable advice and a very solid plan aimed at helping you get your musical  productions up a number of notches in the fastest way possible  .
 
 
Splat is installed over here on 2  computers .

One computer has a ton of 3 rd party plugs , synths , and various musical apps that have been integrated in to the full install of SONAR SPlat .

The other computer has only the basic SONAR Splat install including only the various plugs and synths that are tied to my Cakewalk account .
 
After chasing my tail around for a few months and getting nowhere fast due to the shine and glimmer of lots of 3 rd party plugs , synths , and after having endured  their misuse and the constant learning curve distractions  ,
I decided to keep my computer with only the basic install of SONAR just the way it was for 2 main reasons .
One , I didn't want to burn through all my licenses on a lot of my non Cakewalk software ..
Two , I found out for myself that this computer served a much greater purpose as my Woodshed machine for diving in deep and learning all I could about using what I already have in SONAR ...
 
FWIW , it has been very satisfying for me to use this approach .
After picking up a few Groove 3 vids for SPlat and working through a small number of Craig's weekly tips I have made much  faster gains in a shorter amount of time then my old learning / workflow approach ...
I have also found it to be very satisfying to ditch other peoples  presets and to create my own including all my own effects device chains from scratch specifically for the music I'm working on and recording ...
 
There are a lot of highly effective top shelf quality plugs that came with SPlat  that didn't come with X2 or X3
That means there's a lot of bang for "the bucks already spent " hidden in plain sight in the effects section of the browser in SPlat 
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2016/07/29 11:06:32

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
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#6
bapu
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 10:56:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/07/29 11:21:00
3rd party plugs are a sinkhole for your wallet. I know. You can end up with hundreds (if not thousands) of choices and it can be daunting when you just want to get your song done.
 
Kenny and Dan pretty much have the right of it. Learn what you have and then decide if what have is not quite getting you there. Then go back and really figure out why and chances are you don't need anything new.
 
Just remember:
“It did what all ads are supposed to do: create an anxiety relievable by purchase.” 
― David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest
#7
Fleer
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 11:15:08 (permalink)
bapu
 
Just remember:
“It did what all ads are supposed to do: create an anxiety relievable by purchase.” 
― David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest


"If you are immune to boredom, there is literally nothing you cannot accomplish”
– The Pale King (2011)

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
#8
bitflipper
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 11:20:18 (permalink)
All of the above is good advice. 
 
SONAR bundles pretty much every essential effect, and a skilled mixer will have no problem achieving quality results using nothing else.
 
Exceptions are generally novelty effects and tools, none of which are essential but can add greatly to the fun factor. Examples of fun and unusual but technically unnecessary processors: Toraverb, StutterEdit, MSpectralDynamics, Saturn, various rotary simulators and pitch-modulators.
 
Then there are mastering tools. Technically, not necessary. But they can make the process easier. Topping that list, IMO, is Ozone, although others will have their own favorites.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#9
Fleer
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 11:26:38 (permalink)
Mmmm, Toraverb. Got to play with that juan.

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
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bapu
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 11:27:29 (permalink)
Depending on the song, my mastering tools choices are (in order of probable use):
 
1. Slate FG-X (for simple Rock, Metal and Pop)
2. Ozone 7 Advanced (for more sophisticated mastering)
3. Lurrsen Mastering Console (for Q&D of an already damn fine mix)
4. IK Multimedia T-Racks
5. UAD Precision Series
#11
emeraldsoul
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 11:29:08 (permalink)
dcumpian
 
 
Many beginners and hobbyists assume that more expensive plugins will make your music sound better. I've been there myself, and it simply isn't true, as long as the plugins used are, at the very least, transparent. 
 
 



^^^this is good
 
But, if you have a little spending cash for such things, wait for a sale (you won't have to wait long) and dive in to a few third party offerings anyway.
 
I run Sonar Artist, which comes with minimal bloat, and rely on the third party plugins I have come to know. I got on okay with the stock plugs but succumbed to the "more $$$ + intentional design = better sound" paradigm. I actually don't regret it though.
 
I don't have any Waves plug-ins at the moment, but I used to have lots, until they kicked in with their yearly update fee or whatever that was. If they still do that, it totally sucks.
 
I'd recommend you look at Fab Filter Pro-L limiter, and a nice convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I think the stock set of Sonar plugs is deficient in those two areas.
 
Another "third party" concept for you is not effects, but sounds/instruments. You could spend eons coaxing something out of Dimension Pro, and there is some good stuff in there, but holy moly if you get Kontakt that opens up whole worlds of sonic awesome, some of which requires minimal tweaking with effects of your part.
 
Ozone is a beast, I have it, others love it, but I'd say the learning curve is steep (it's a powerful program) for example one of its modules lets you add different levels of sonic excitement to different frequency bands. That's kind of useful. However, in the wrong hands it can EASILY screw up a mix, and you might throw hours down a rat hole. And I'd argue that other third party offerings are more transparent in their treatment of your sound.
 
 
so what I'm saying is, good luck! Post some songs and get feedback from others like yourself, I've found that very useful in surfing the learning curve.
 
-Tom
 
 

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www.studiusinterruptus.com
 
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#12
JonD
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 12:32:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/07/29 13:02:30
A year's subscription to Groove3 (And then, of course, watching and absorbing as many videos as you can) will do more for your music productions than any VST purchase.

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yorolpal
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 12:35:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2016/07/30 12:57:43
Unless you make your living with Sonar or are wanting to try and compete with the best mix engineers out there, there is really no reason to invest in any (or many) third party plugins if you own Sonar Platinum.  And even then...if you can't make a great sounding track using just the plugs that come with SPLAT, you probably won't fair any better with third party plugs.  Save yourself both time and money and don't fall prey to what many of us here already have and cannot get shut of...GAS.
 
 
Now third party INSTRUMENTS...is a whole nother thang!
post edited by yorolpal - 2016/07/29 12:57:26

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Fleer
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 12:46:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2016/07/29 13:44:43
JonD
A year's subscription to Groove3 (And then, of course, watching and absorbing as many videos as you can) will do more for your music productions than any VST purchase.


Forgot about the watching part.

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/29 13:23:29 (permalink)
JonD
A year's subscription to Groove3 (And then, of course, watching and absorbing as many videos as you can) will do more for your music productions than any VST purchase.


 
Watching and learning something new from a Groove 3 video  has been one of the things that has helped me a lot when I'm sitting here on the sidelines wishing I had the money available to spend on some of the super hot VST software deals when they are happening .
Watching the vid helps me cope with not having the bucks . Plus in most cases I usually learn something new ...
 
I know I can say this publicly here on the forum and be totally OK with it ...
My other secret weapon / coping skill  is a rather tough pill to swallow ....yet I know it's true ....
 
I've asked myself this question given my current level of skill   
What would happen if I sat down to do music on Noels computer , Craig A's computer , Bapu's computer , yorolpal's  computer or any other forum member that is known for having a choice selection of plugs and top shelf VST tools ...
As much as I would like to believe that skill wise  I would be instantly transformed into something just like a musical  Cinderella that finally get invited to the Ball .
The truth is , for me  it would be much more accurate for me to say that using one of the above mentioned persons computers at  my current level of skill with all the cool plugs they have would probably equal I simply might just get lucky ....
When I say lucky ,realistically I'm talking more a long the lines of a blind squirrel that found a nut simply because he just got lucky ...not because he knew where or how to find it ....
alright my confession is now over  lol
 
all the best,
 
Kenny 
 
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2016/07/29 13:44:42

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#16
Siluroo
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 05:28:06 (permalink)
I am in the same boat as the OP, mabye a bit more advanced as I am both an artist and an IT person.
 
Have spent a lot of time looking at plugins, both on the deals page, and magazine reviews from SOS, CM and FM.
 
After 3 months of studying them all, have come to the conclusion, that the ones in cakewalk are good enough, unless you like the look of another tool for workflow purposes or specific sounds/tasks, in which case you will know what u need.
 
I looked at waves stuff a lot, because everyone sort of talks it up, but think I would rather get the Fabfilter bundles (25% off until end of month at http://www.fabfilter.com/shop/), or If I had money to burn, and needed to feed my ego, some UAD stuff with hardware to reduce processor load.  But what I think I will end up doing is wait for a sale in Cakewalks store, get the caekwalk pack with the CA-2, and some of the Blue stuff, for no other reason than if  I really need new toys to play with, I may as well spend my dough in a place where it might get invested back into updates for the DAW that I am using.
 
However, at moment, I think my money is much better spent on getting high quality instruments and studio hardware such as better quality monitor speakers and headphones so I can better hear when to apply my exist plugins, or even a hardware synth (I am very eager to see what the new Behringer is going to be like).
 
I am also following this thread, because I very nearly asked the very same question the OP did a few weeks ago, before deciding that I dont want to become a plugin collector :)

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#17
BobF
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 07:42:44 (permalink)
Mesh
IK's T-Racks are also excellent. The best way (most economical) to get them is when IK has a group buy or some other major sale (like the one going on right now). They have become my go to and it's very easy to tweak to get very good results.




Another T-TrackS fan here.  Watch for bundle deals
 
I use stuff from Waves Gold quite a bit too.  GTR was a surprise gem in Gold.  Watch for bundle deals

Bob  --
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--
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#18
olemon
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 09:08:33 (permalink)
Like you, I'm mixing and mastering my own songs.  The first few plugins I added were IK-Multimedia's T-RackS Classic bundle, then the Waves Renaissance Channel Strip, and then Ozone 5 I think.  I followed that with several more, including the ProChannel bundle from Cakewalk, but there are only a few that I use regularly.  I rarely tried a demo, I'd just go for the sale - watch out for the 'Deals' forum and all of those YouTube videos using 3rd Party Fx - but trying demos is probably the smarter way to go.
 
The only thing that's really missing from Sonar is a Mastering suite, and mainly just a loudness maximizer like the Waves L2 or the one bundled in Ozone.
 
 
 
 
 

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#19
jude77
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 11:24:04 (permalink)
bapu
3rd party plugs are a sinkhole for your wallet. I know. You can end up with hundreds (if not thousands) of choices and it can be daunting when you just want to get your song done.
 
Kenny and Dan pretty much have the right of it. Learn what you have and then decide if what have is not quite getting you there. Then go back and really figure out why and chances are you don't need anything new.
 
Just remember:
“It did what all ads are supposed to do: create an anxiety relievable by purchase.” 
― David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest




That comment is dead on.  Like others I've gone through a TON of plugins and now regularly use about 20.  If I could be so bold as to offer any advice, I'd say listen to your recordings and see what you think they lack and then go from there.
 
As a closing note: years ago I bought a Roland VS840 8-track digital recorder.  It was nothing exceptional. It had acceptable preamps and had some on-board digital effects.  Included with it were several songs that were recorded ONLY with the VS840 and additional mics.  THEY SOUNDED BEAUTIFUL!!  I learned then that it's not so much the equipment you have, as how you use it.  Maybe in addition to looking at plugins you might also spend some time studying mic placement and room acoustics.  I think those two things could give you gigantic gains in your recordings.
 
Best of luck to you!

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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#20
Lynn
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 12:26:42 (permalink)
Don't forget to try the Nomad Factory bundle that't included with Splat.  They may satisfy your quest for additional plugs for quite a while.  Also, Blue Cat makes some seriously good and free plugs that complement those in Sonar.

All the best,
Lynn

my songs
www.soundclick.com/lynnwilson

www.youtube.com/lywilson
my videos

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Vastman
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 12:35:48 (permalink)
SPlat ProChannel is really all ya need to do amazing stuff...the current sale on the PC leveler is a must have.
 
I sport a thousand plugs... I use maybe 10 of them... total waste of money!  If I were you I'd invest in Omnisphere 2 and a lot of Plug in Guru O2 packs... will radically improve your creative chops and songwriting more than ANY product I know. BTW, just go to youtube and subscribe to the pluginguru vids.... you will learn a bucketful of awesomeness for FREE
post edited by Vastman - 2016/07/30 12:56:55

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#22
bapu
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 12:38:52 (permalink)
yorolpal
 
Now third party INSTRUMENTS...is a whole nother thang!


^^^^ THIS ^^^^
#23
Marshall
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 15:10:35 (permalink)
I love this forum - just brilliant, in depth thoughtful comment. Thanks for taking the time. I'm not a novice, I started with an 8 Track back around 2001, and have been using DAWs since about '04, Sonar since '08 I think. During those early years I was forever on KVR and picking up FX, some of which I actually used. Then you change computer, forget what you had and realise you don't miss those things.
 
Upgrading recently to Platinum recently I had already pretty much come to the conclusion that it contained virtually everything I could possibly need. 
 
So, I am very fortunate in that before the end of 2016, I will have more time to spend on my passion for making music. And that will be devoted to learning to use what is under my nose, including an annual sub to Groove 3.
 
And I'll get brave and post a song or two for critique, been a few years now!
#24
rsinger
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Re: Third party FX 2016/07/30 15:51:05 (permalink)
I agree with Dan and would ask, if there is some well produced piece of music on the net and you don't know anything about the production can you tell what compressors and EQs were used to mix it? What compressors and EQs were used to master it? If not, then how important is a particular tool? What is important is does the tool do what you want it to?
 
As mentioned above I like Nomad Factories' Blue Tube bundle that came with Sonar and use the pultec style EQs as well as the oilcan echo. I think both work well with guitar. There are quite a few tools available in platinum.
 
Having said that, I have upgraded some of the PC tools over the years. I use the PC concrete limiter and CA 2A leveling amp quite bit, as well as the PC-4k expander/gate & compressor occasionally. I also use the VKFX. The VKVX are pretty nice used with an electro harmonix key9.
 
And of course youtube is your friend as well as the cakewalk videos.

Sonar Platinum, 64 bit, win 7 pro - 64 bit 
Core i7 3770k 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gb Ram, 480Gb + 256Gb SSDs, 1 Tb Velociraptor, Echo AudioFire4

#25
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