Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering?

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AdrianNewington
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2016/08/12 17:04:48 (permalink)

Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering?

Hello,
 

My question is...
Is the production of a song always a 2 step process of mixdown and then mastering?
It seems just before mixdown, it all sounds so great, but when the first mix is played back, it becomes obvious to me that it needs tweaking.
Does something happen, or is something lost in the mixdown process that subsequently requires this final adjustment?
 
I'd would really appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
 
TIA
Adrian
(Sonar X1 producer)
post edited by AdrianNewington - 2016/08/12 17:53:52

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    John
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 17:49:39 (permalink)
    I know what you are talking about. The project seems to sound one way but the stereo mix is not as good. I believe this is due to a mistake in the export settings used. Also some effects (plugins) may need to be rendered in real time. Not many though. 
     
    One thing that might help is Mix Recall. Try different mixes using it and export each. 

    Best
    John
    #2
    chuckebaby
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 17:57:28 (permalink)
    there are a few things to be considered.
    sometimes we mix down from 24 bit to 16, 92k to 41k.
    The very speakers we listen through in sonar,
    are those the same speakers you use to listen to your final mix on or are you listening on computer speakers ?
     
    this is not a bad question by any means though. its actually a very good one.
    I find through trial and error, listening in different atmosphere's helps a lot. (the car, the home, the DAW and computer speakers as well. comparing it to other mixes from professional artists/producers.
     
     this is something I am fighting with at this very moment, this is something im continuously fighting with.
    better and better mixes, better and better masters. so its okay not to be content with your mix downs, but not okay to be unhappy about them. it just means you are working that much harder at getting more advanced and training the ear that much more.
    so to answer your question... I have no clue
     
    but I do find the best place to start is levels. too much or not enough. to find that place where they are just right so when you do master there is enough room to expand, but not so much where you have to raise the floor large amounts.
    im finding more and more to keep things simple. I used to way over mix my material. EQ, compression, FX.
    now I find that by using a high pass filter, a low pass filter and tailoring the middle for emphasis is the way to go.
    sure some things need sculpting, but not everything does. almost like im over doing it on this comment, I do the same thing while mixing and tend to bump up frequency's thus the floor raises to high. then im fighting levels to keep at unity.
    typically if your mixes don't sound like it does in sonar, its the levels at which you exported and as john said, the settings you used to export.
    post edited by chuckebaby - 2016/08/12 18:28:17

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    #3
    Anderton
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 20:46:10 (permalink)
    Mixing is about finding the best balance among a collection of individual tracks. It doesn't matter if, for example, all the instruments are lacking highs somewhat if they all lack highs, because you can still balance them.
     
    Mastering is about working with a single entity rather than a collection of tracks.
     
    It's entirely possible to come up with mixes that need very little tweaking. But, you need to anticipate what you want the final sound to be, and build that into each track of the mix. Sometimes it's more effective to concern yourself only with the balance during the mix, and do the overall processing while mastering.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #4
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 21:01:48 (permalink)
    If you saying your exports don't seem to sound as good as your Sonar playback,, then you need to figure out why. Import the song back into Sonar and compare. 
     
    But that said I have always mastered my songs in a Wave editor because that's what a Wave editor does best. Sonar can do it,  but it is missing some important tools like RMS peak averaging.
     
    It's also dead simple to top and tail or add a fade out in a Wave editor. 
    But most of what I need is to get that song at the perfect level that matches everything else.
    My SOnar expoprts always sound identical to the playback within Sonar. 
    I use the default export settings with one change and that's to 16 bit for CD's. ( I work @ 44.1 for now. 
     
    They have talked about including better wave editing, hasn't happened yet, but I'm still hoping for it. My Wave editor will last for a long time yet but all software costs money and needed upgrading every so many years. I'm hoping Cakewalk will come through before that time for me. 
     

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    #5
    pinguinotuerto
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 21:16:24 (permalink)
    John
    One thing that might help is Mix Recall. Try different mixes using it and export each. 



    John, I thought Mix Recall was not available in X1. 

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    #6
    olemon
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 22:00:28 (permalink)
    My mixes sound as good or bad as I make them, and the wave file I export sounds the same.
    I import the mixed wave file into a new project and Master it there with some Eq and/or Compression/Limiting.
    Now, it is often the case that after letting my ears reset I do hear things in the mixed wave file I missed and I have to go back to the mix for some editing or whatever.
     
    I recently sent a mix off to a local mastering engineer.  When I got it back I heard a wayward consonant in the second chorus.  Sure enough, when I went back to mix and listened closely, there it was.

    https://www.reverbnation.com/scottholson
     
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    John
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 22:37:07 (permalink)
    pinguinotuerto
    John
    One thing that might help is Mix Recall. Try different mixes using it and export each. 



    John, I thought Mix Recall was not available in X1. 


    True. I didn't realize he is on X1. Now I feel sorry for him.  

    Best
    John
    #8
    bitman
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/12 23:36:54 (permalink)
    This is a round and round that ends when you've had enough, "release" it and move on to the next. That said emastered.com is free right now.
    #9
    Anderton
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/13 11:40:18 (permalink)
    Seems I interpreted the question differently from others - that it wasn't about bouncing or exporting changing the sound, but about the difference between listening to a project for balance and listening for delivery.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    stevesweat
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/14 11:08:53 (permalink)
      To answer the first question - theoretically a finished mix should need no "mastering"; if it doesn't sound right yet then you are not finished mixing. Mastering originated as an art of placing multiple songs on one album and ensuring the songs have a sonic similarity and sit well together.
      In practice it is now commonplace to process in the stereo realm after the tracks are blended. People call this "mastering" but it is not mastering in the true sense. True professional mastering is always done in a studio dedicated for mastering and not by the person who mixed.

    Steve
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    chuckebaby
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/14 11:53:54 (permalink)
    bitman
    This is a round and round that ends when you've had enough, "release" it and move on to the next. That said emastered.com is free right now.


    gave this a shot yesterday because of reading your comment.
    I must admit, it wasn't too bad. the levels compared similar (not quite but close) to my own masters.
    (I did a side by side comparison of a master I did yesterday.)
     
    As I said, the levels were similar, but the over all compression and EQ were a lot different.
    I found emastering had over compressed the mix vs. the one I mastered was more limited.
    I also found a generic EQ present Vs. a dialed in sound to fit the genre and the material.
    but over all, it was free and it IS something I would use if I were in a bind and needed a quick master if I didn't know how or didn't have the time.
     
    with all this being said, I have custom mastering templates that fit a different jandra of music that will do the same thing. I typically load those templates and then spend a few hours tweaking them.
     
    thanks for the heads up on that lsb. it was an interesting experience much like Landr.
    was interesting to compare the differences.

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    #12
    Maarkr
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/14 20:22:21 (permalink)
    it wasn't until I was finishing my last project that I viewed a tutorial video on using IKM TRackS in standalone mode to master.  Before that, I would get each of my tracks about the same RMS on the album (individual mastering) and called it good.  This time I loaded my 10 album tracks in the TRacks module, loaded a linear phase EQ, mild comp, and limiter.  Then I started auditioning each track in sections, tweaking some EQ and comp/output along the way and setting the limiter for all tracks.  Doing it this way allowed me to listen to different parts of all of the songs and adjust the EQ balance and sound output to make the album more "unified."  I'm sure you can do something similar to this with a wave editor but I know I'll be using this method on my current album.  
    Maybe my explanation won't help without watching the video, and maybe this didn't answer your question,  but I thought it may help people rethink mastering, since I've struggled with it for over ten years of digital self-production.
     
    As I was ready to post this, I looked quickly on YouTube and found this intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtZ2SMNX36Q  

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    Anderton
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/14 22:16:21 (permalink)
    stevesweat
      To answer the first question - theoretically a finished mix should need no "mastering"; if it doesn't sound right yet then you are not finished mixing. Mastering originated as an art of placing multiple songs on one album and ensuring the songs have a sonic similarity and sit well together.
      In practice it is now commonplace to process in the stereo realm after the tracks are blended. People call this "mastering" but it is not mastering in the true sense. True professional mastering is always done in a studio dedicated for mastering and not by the person who mixed.

     
    For a long time the most important aspect of mastering was tailoring the final stereo mix to fit the dynamic range and frequency response limitations of the distribution medium. You could have a perfect mix in the studio, but that didn't mean it would translate to vinyl. Although it was common to do different mixes for mono and stereo versions, from that point on, mastering took care of preparing the final mix for the varying requirements of LP vinyl, 45s, cassette, and sometimes even radio.
     
    This is one reason why mastering engineers attained such a mystique: yes, they would sequence and level-match the album based on the artist's input, but this often had to modified based on constraints of the delivery medium. You couldn't put a loud song on the inner grooves, bass had to be mono, there was always a tradeoff of length/level/frequency response, and so on. The typical tools used to adapt the final mix to various media were dynamics processors and (particularly to avoid freaking out the RIAA curve) EQ. It was the mastering engineer who generated, and discarded, test pressing after test pressing because some of this process was trial and error as you tried different tradeoffs. Some great mixes have been recovered only since the dawn of the CD, when the original master tapes no longer had to compensate for vinyl...compare some of the recent Blue Note CDs to the vinyl versions, then try to tell me that vinyl "sounds better" 
     
    You might think that with today's digital media, there truly is no need to master if a mix sounds good. But that's "in theory," and the world doesn't always agree "in practice." For example after decades of people being acclimated to compressed sound (overcompressing has been around since long before maximizers hit the world), dynamics is still used as part of the mastering process. Applying dynamics to program material produces very different results compared to applying dynamics to individual tracks while mixing. Also, EQ can do "broad strokes" while mastering that would be time-consuming to do on a track-by-track basis. It's also sometimes necessary to do separate masters for CD and MP3 because of how the MP3 encoding process alters the sound, and of course, a compilation can consist of great mixes that stand on their own, but don't flow as a collection. 
     
    A really good example of the difference between mixing and mastering involved a project for a woman who was traveling to Italy and left me with a mix to master. She wasn't around for feedback, and I really couldn't tell if it was intended for more of a club sound or an ambient vibe. So I mastered the mix in two different ways. When she came back, she liked them both; they were both valid, even though they were from the same mix. 
     
    Although in this post-vinyl (maybe!) age there remains much merit in having an independent set of trained ears adding the final production/artistic steps to a mix, being able to master is not mutually exclusive with being able to mix. It's a different skill set, but with enough experience, it's possible to be good at both. The hardest part is more psychological, namely being able to "forget" you ever mixed something, so you can be objective and treat the final mix as something you've never heard before. In the rush-rush days of putting out music, projects went right from mixing to mastering so you needed another person for the required objectivity. With today's more leisurely pace, you can put a mix aside for a month or two, and come back to it fresh when it's time to master.
     
    In classical projects, mastering in the conventional sense has become pretty much superfluous. But for pop music, mastering remains not only the last step in the technical process, but nowadays, it can be the last step in the production process as well.
     

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #14
    soens
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    Re: Mixdown: Is something lost, thus requiring Mastering? 2016/08/14 23:04:43 (permalink)
    I don't seem to have this issue, even when I export to a lower resolution.... tho not much lower.
    #15
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