Raga

I was set to listen and comment but I've begun a new policy -- at least for me.  If I don't know the poster I look to see if he(she) has recently reviewed other people's songs.  If not, no review from me.  If people just put up new posts without giving a few others a courtesy review it defeats the purpose of this forum.  (And just to be clear, I'm not asking for reviews of my songs.)  I'm sure I'm not alone in my thinking on this.
 
Allan
===
 
 

Sounds like a nice blend of musical sources Jerry, the mix works well here.

jsg
Well, that's great for you but my policy is I don't comment on other people's work because between composing, producing, teaching music to others, and family life, I don't have time, nor do I have the inclination to offer my opinion.  The purpose of this forum is to share work, if it's a tit-for-tat game for you, that's your choice.  You'll miss out on music you might not hear elsewhere. 
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 

Are you suggesting that people just listen to what you present and not offer any input?
 
I've always assumed that not only do we share here but we do so under the premise if someone listens and has something to say that might be helpful or supportive it's would be a better all around community for that.

bapu

jsg
Well, that's great for you but my policy is I don't comment on other people's work because between composing, producing, teaching music to others, and family life, I don't have time, nor do I have the inclination to offer my opinion.  The purpose of this forum is to share work, if it's a tit-for-tat game for you, that's your choice.  You'll miss out on music you might not hear elsewhere. 
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 

Are you suggesting that people just listen to what you present and not offer any input?
 
I've always assumed that not only do we share here but we do so under the premise if someone listens and has something to say that might be helpful or supportive it's would be a better all around community for that.

Bapu,
You've opened up a real can of worms here.  I post my music here so that people can listen, and hopefully enjoy listening.  I believe my music is worth listening to and in many ways unique from much of the music here.  The poster "Mr. Bull" suggests that if I don't comment on other's work he won't listen to or comment on mine.   Fair enough, that's his choice.   But to be artistically honest is difficult without offending people, which I have no intention of doing.   I don't criticize the work of others because I don't find it enjoyable or profitable to do so.   As an instructor of composition and music production, of course I offer sincere feedback to my students.  But they are working hard for me, they are paying me and they care about my opinion and I care about their progress.  How could I possibly feel that way about every stranger on a music forum?  
 
Most criticism is nonsense to me, not just criticism of my work, which I pay no attention to (any good composer learns this sooner or later) but criticism of other's works as well.   What education, background, experience, listening skills, musical talent and motivation determines whether criticism is valid?  Most so-called criticism is simply subjective opinion, sort of like my opinion of spinach (I don't like it), it has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of spinach and everything to do with personal taste.  Also, much criticism is driven by envy - go to a site called The Composer's Forum and you'll see what I mean.  People envy other's talents, careers, income, reputation -  and I want nothing to do with any of that miserable mindset.   If criticism really helps others to create better music, great, they should seek out and accept criticism.  but that's not what helps me be a better composer or music producer. 
 
I try to be supportive on Cakewalk forums by posting helpful hints regarding the use of Sonar, and also helping people resolve issues they are having, many of my posts through the years have been marked as helpful.  As far as supporting the work of others, again I must be honest.  I don't support the work of others unless I believe their work is unique, outstanding and really competent.  At the same time, I don't feel the need to tell others what's wrong with their music, or what about it doesn't move me.  That's for them to figure out.  Nobody is as much of an expert on one's own music more than the composer who wrote it!  
 
Of course I appreciate when others like my work and say so, but that's not why I write music and not why I post music.  How can I be responsible for the reactions of others?  I cannot.  As I said, this is a touchy topic with many ego and self-esteem issues being triggered.  Trying to balance tact and tolerance with authenticity and honesty is not always easy.  If people feel offended by what I wrote, that is neither my intent nor my problem.   It's easy to attack someone when sitting behind a computer screen typing away oblivious to the reality of the other human being.  People are so much more polite in person, but also more unwilling to risk confrontation.  Go figure...
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Hey Jerry
there's merit to both points, however a forum has inate commenting/debate implications which posting on YouTube or SOundcloud doesn't. listening/commenting/reading comments has a positive effect on everyone involved.
as far as your piece goes, it is very well programmed and the synthesis of string and synth works well.
for me i'd like a little more rhythmic development, and whilst there's a little discordant bit at the end using the synth, it is very harmonically correct. again, more exploration of the unusual would elevate this further.
i'd be interested to hear more of your work however




My CDs can be purchased here:  www.jerrygerber.com/store.htm
 

emeraldsoul
Ouch! To be fair, I read your manifesto while I listened to your piece. In your post, you raise some interesting points and state them cogently. I won't bother to tell you what I thought of your musical offering "Raga" since it would be uselessly subjective for you. And you know your own work better than anyone else ever could.
 
I am left to wonder - why did you post your song, exactly?
 
So other people could listen to it?
 
OK, mission accomplished! I listened!
 
cheers,
-Tom

Yes, you got it, so others can listen. 
 
Every amateur in the world has an opinion: 
 
"the bass is too loud, the bass isn't loud enough"
"the strings sound a little bit like samples" (they are)
"I like the piece but I think it could have more rhythm"
"I'd like to hear the drum track a bit louder"
"the piece is too short"
"the piece is too long"
etc. etc.
 
I don't find this kind these types of criticism meaningful.  When I am teaching composition, I always ask my students questions BEFORE commenting, questions such as "What are you trying to accomplish in this passage?" or "Are you aware that the voice-leading of your inner voice at measure 42 in the second beat tends to weaken the dissonance you created in the upper voices?", or at measure 73, when the rhythm changes abruptly, are you sure the transition is smooth and convincing enough for you?  I don't offer criticism until I understand the composer's objective, and whether I think I can help them achieve it.  
 
Very specific criticism from people who know a lot about composition (because they've written a lot of music on a professional level of craft) can be useful, particularly if they are sympathetic to the composer.   But amateur criticism just doesn't hold any weight for me because it's like, tell me something I don't already know.  Everyone has an opinion.   For me, writing music is not about pleasing other people (apart from whether somebody is paying me to write, that's a different matter).  I follow my own vision, my own aesthetic and I build and improve my craft by hearing my own miscalculations and things that bother my ear.  If a composer doesn't trust his own ear, forget it, he'll never be a good composer.   I restrain myself from criticizing the works of others either because I have no affinity for the style they're working in or simply because I don't want to listen to such music and my criticism would be worthless to that composer. 
 
I am probably on the wrong forum.   Although I've gotten a lot of very positive comments over the years,   I'd be better off finding a forum more focused on my genre, nobody's at fault, just not the best place for me...
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 

jsg
When I am teaching composition, I always ask my students questions BEFORE commenting, questions such as "What are you trying to accomplish in this passage?" or "Are you aware that the voice-leading of your inner voice at measure 42 in the second beat tends to weaken the dissonance you created in the upper voices?", or at measure 73, when the rhythm changes abruptly, are you sure the transition is smooth and convincing enough for you?  I don't offer criticism until I understand the composer's objective, and whether I think I can help them achieve it.  

 
You could do something like this here, very easily. But no one here is paying you. You have to do it just to be helpful.
 

jsg
Very specific criticism from people who know a lot about composition (because they've written a lot of music on a professional level of craft) can be useful, particularly if they are sympathetic to the composer.   But amateur criticism just doesn't hold any weight for me because it's like, tell me something I don't already know. 

 
I'll put aside excoriating you at length for pomposity, in order to suggest you listen to the works of Dan Cumpian. If you can possibly tolerate other genres, try Yoropal, Walt Collins, anything touched by Daryl. I could name many others. I don't know what feeds your musical soul, but some of the amateurs here are better than others and some are quite good indeed.
 
Why can't you take some joy in the music of amateurs?
 

jsg
Everyone has an opinion.   For me, writing music is not about pleasing other people (apart from whether somebody is paying me to write, that's a different matter).  I follow my own vision, my own aesthetic and I build and improve my craft by hearing my own miscalculations and things that bother my ear.  If a composer doesn't trust his own ear, forget it, he'll never be a good composer.  

 
 
By all means, keep following your own vision . . . but then why commit anything you've written to mp3 or .wav - why share any of it ever? 
 
Like you, many of us here write music to please ourselves, primarily, but we don't denigrate the sharing of it, and we encourage others who are on the same imperfect journey.

 

jsg
I restrain myself from criticizing the works of others either because I have no affinity for the style they're working in or simply because I don't want to listen to such music and my criticism would be worthless to that composer. 

 
Fair enough, that makes sense, except your criticism could have value on a technical level, if not on a musical one.
 

jsg
 
I am probably on the wrong forum.   Although I've gotten a lot of very positive comments over the years,   I'd be better off finding a forum more focused on my genre, nobody's at fault, just not the best place for me...
 

 
 No, here's where you are really wrong - this forum is exactly the right forum for you - because possibly you will reflect and learn something on the nature of sharing. Plus there are plenty of classicos around here.
 
Jerry, you are talented in music and in words, and I hope you stay, and more importantly, share your wisdom and gifts with others. AND comment of the works of others along the way. Hence, "forum."
 
If not, you risk continually driving down a one-way street to your own echo chamber.
 
 
-Tom
 

emeraldsoul

jsg
When I am teaching composition, I always ask my students questions BEFORE commenting, questions such as "What are you trying to accomplish in this passage?" or "Are you aware that the voice-leading of your inner voice at measure 42 in the second beat tends to weaken the dissonance you created in the upper voices?", or at measure 73, when the rhythm changes abruptly, are you sure the transition is smooth and convincing enough for you?  I don't offer criticism until I understand the composer's objective, and whether I think I can help them achieve it.  

 
You could do something like this here, very easily. But no one here is paying you. You have to do it just to be helpful.
 

jsg
Very specific criticism from people who know a lot about composition (because they've written a lot of music on a professional level of craft) can be useful, particularly if they are sympathetic to the composer.   But amateur criticism just doesn't hold any weight for me because it's like, tell me something I don't already know. 

 
I'll put aside excoriating you at length for pomposity, in order to suggest you listen to the works of Dan Cumpian. If you can possibly tolerate other genres, try Yoropal, Walt Collins, anything touched by Daryl. I could name many others. I don't know what feeds your musical soul, but some of the amateurs here are better than others and some are quite good indeed.
 
Why can't you take some joy in the music of amateurs?
 

jsg
Everyone has an opinion.   For me, writing music is not about pleasing other people (apart from whether somebody is paying me to write, that's a different matter).  I follow my own vision, my own aesthetic and I build and improve my craft by hearing my own miscalculations and things that bother my ear.  If a composer doesn't trust his own ear, forget it, he'll never be a good composer.  

 
 
By all means, keep following your own vision . . . but then why commit anything you've written to mp3 or .wav - why share any of it ever? 
 
Like you, many of us here write music to please ourselves, primarily, but we don't denigrate the sharing of it, and we encourage others who are on the same imperfect journey.

 

jsg
I restrain myself from criticizing the works of others either because I have no affinity for the style they're working in or simply because I don't want to listen to such music and my criticism would be worthless to that composer. 

 
Fair enough, that makes sense, except your criticism could have value on a technical level, if not on a musical one.
 

jsg
 
I am probably on the wrong forum.   Although I've gotten a lot of very positive comments over the years,   I'd be better off finding a forum more focused on my genre, nobody's at fault, just not the best place for me...
 

 
 No, here's where you are really wrong - this forum is exactly the right forum for you - because possibly you will reflect and learn something on the nature of sharing. Plus there are plenty of classicos around here.
 
Jerry, you are talented in music and in words, and I hope you stay, and more importantly, share your wisdom and gifts with others. AND comment of the works of others along the way. Hence, "forum."
 
If not, you risk continually driving down a one-way street to your own echo chamber.
 
 
-Tom
 



Thank you Tom for your thoughtful reply.  Through the years I've given much help to people needing it on the Sonar forum.  Many have been marked helpful, I am much more helpful in terms of helping people use Sonar than I am offering comments about music.  And it's not that I don't have sympathy for amateurs, I was an amateur myself once.  And I realize that some gifted amateurs can produce excellent music, I did a job a few months ago for a retired doctor who loves composing, he created some really wonderful duets for violin and cello that I produced for him.  What I don't have much time for is poorly written or poorly produced music and styles that simply don't provoke meaning in me.  Right now on my desk are recordings and scores of Mahler's 6th symphony, Bach's Brandenburg concertos, and Samuel Barber's magnificent piano concerto.  That tells you something about my tastes. If I am out and about driving, at a party, eating in a cafe or restaurant, etc. I enjoy lots of different kinds of music, everything from rock n roll, to jazz to bluegrass (love that!) to music from India.   But in my office when I actually am intently listening to music (meaning I am doing nothing but listening) I only listen to classical music, it's where my heart and mind are, I have a passion for it. 
 
I actually had never thought of leaving this forum until some guy named Mr. Bull went to the trouble of telling me he won't listen my work if I don't listen to his, or others music.  Why did he have to tell me that?  Could he simply have not listened and leave it at that? No, he had to project his annoyance and tell me of his "policy".  I don't care about his policy.  I have 16 waking hours in a day and I am not going to spend it listening to every piece on any forum.  There's not enough time.  At the risk of appearing pompous or elitist or whatever, I am being honest about why, and what kind, of music I listen to.  One composer once said, "the more I love music, the less music I love". Call it snobbery, elitism or arrogance if you wish, but what it really comes down to is very sensitive ears, a deep appreciation of harmonics and a love of the intricacies, subtleties and wide expressive range of the best music.   I choose my influences carefully. 
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com