eph221
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Rain
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/25 20:04:42
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A sad state of affair. People will pay $8 for a beer in a bar or $5 for their morning coffee but they refuse to spend money on music. They'll waste hundreds of dollars and even wait in line to have the latest phone model - regardless of the fact that the one they bought a year before is still absolutely adequate - but won't pay $10 for a record, not even for streaming.
The first album I bought was Ozzy Osbourne's Diary of a Madman, back in 1983. The average price for an album back then was $12 plus tax. 33 years later, I can buy Diary of Madman on CD for $5.99 on Amazon, have access to the MP3 instantly and get the CD delivered on my doorstep in a couple of days.
And still, people feel so entitled that they refuse to pay for it.
I have a very passionate relation with music - streaming just isn't in my genes. I love albums. Not those overly self-indulgent 90 minutes contemporary records, but albums in the classic sense. I like to sit back with a record sleeve or a cd booklet in my hands and read lyrics and notes and credits. Or just listen. And form some kind of bond with the music, make the record a part of my life.
Streaming is the equivalent of previewing for me.
Maybe music has become so omnipresent in our lives that it has lost all its value. It's disposable background noise. And the truth is that a lot of what's released nowadays actually is nothing more than that.
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eph221
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/25 21:02:49
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There were some advantages to the recording industry controlling the markets (but disadvantages as well) I still feel that music is a very personal expression, and very unique from one artist to the next. I've never felt that art can be commodified. The reason a lot of contemporary painters get famous is simply because their art is so rare. You might be on to something, the fact that it's ubiquitous now. Media is everywhere. The market has also gotten gigantic...basically the whole world is a market rather than just certain countries. The problem might be that *good music and good musicians* aren't rare. There are chinese school children who play the violin as well as itzak pearlman, that's just a fact. Our music education programs have become so good and ubiquitous that it's just not rare any more to hear great music. Professionals have to rethink the value proposition. :D:D (ducks)
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Mosvalve
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/25 21:03:49
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I wonder if these people could appreciate listening to music on a nice stereo system with two big speakers like the good ole days. We invested $$ in what we listened to. I agree Rain there's nothing like it. My 20 year old is amazed how good music sounds a good system but he mostly listens to music on his iphone.
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Rain
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/25 22:39:42
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☄ Helpfulby michaelhanson 2016/10/27 13:08:02
eph221
Our music education programs have become so good and ubiquitous that it's just not rare any more to hear great music. Professionals have to rethink the value proposition. :D:D (ducks)
While I do agree that there are some incredibly gifted young people out there, I think a most of those kids are missing the target by a thousand mile. While the mechanical aspect of performance has reached unprecedented level, thanks in large part to all the tools people have at their disposal, a lot of those performers seem to be plagued by an absolute lack of emotion and/or taste. As it should be - maturing a soul, and the ability to express that soul through music takes time. This wouldn't be such a source of concern if the public didn't suffer from the exact same problem. Hence, hardly a week goes by w/o some video of a young "prodigy" going viral - and if in certain cases the mechanical aspect of the performance is indeed flawless, it is most often absolutely devoid of soul. The number of child prodigies out there is directly proportional to the number of talentless tone-deaf parents and adults. And they are legions... From little 8 year old "channeling the soul of Aretha Franklin" to a 12 year old who "gives Yngwie a run for his money" only 3 months after he first picked up the guitar - what always strikes me is that people really don't hear the difference. And thanks to TV shows like The Voice, musicians are now expected to provide entertainment to those uneducated, soulless, tone-deaf people, like some kind of feat performing puppy. In fact, the public is so numbed that they must be told that they're about to "feel" something, they need to be walked through the same pattern time after time, and be assured that that the huge epic chorus is just about to explode and that the singer will soon switch to full voice. Actually, I'm not sure the audience would still know how to react if they didn't have the judges acting as a barometer and the applause signs. I'm not convinced that the formulaic build-up alone would be enough for them to realize that they are feeling something (or should be).
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eph221
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/25 23:42:06
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TerraSin
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 00:49:44
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I pay $10/mo for spotify and get access to a massive catalogue of music I could have only dreamed of up till a few years ago. Thing is, I don't feel like I appreciate it as much either. I blast through songs and artists like eating candies. Now if I, a musician, feel like I don't appreciate it as much, how does the average listener feel?
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Rain
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 01:03:59
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2016/10/27 21:34:44
I remember when people started downloading music a friend of mine was so proud to tell me that he had every Zappa album (official ones, I presume), everything by Paul Simon, and basically everything by every artist he liked. All I could think was - when are you going to listen to all that stuff? Where will you find the time to listen to 60 some Frank Zappa album? And admitting that you ever manage to listen to every single one, what will you get out of it? It's like people taking a gazillion pictures and filming everything - that stuff just piles up on a hd somewhere. To this day, I try to keep the same approach. I shop for music on iTunes, put tons of things on my wish list and every now and then, I order one of them on CD (or buy it directly on iTunes if sound quality is irrelevant). And then I stick with it for a while. Like that most recent Elvis album I bought last week. I listen to it every chance I get. I feel that that's how music stays relevant and really becomes part of your life.
post edited by Rain - 2016/10/27 22:40:18
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DrLumen
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 01:55:20
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I find it odd as well. Don't they have to pay for standard radio and TV in the UK? Is that why some think $8 is too much?
What really bothers me about all the online stuff is that too many people think it is perfectly fine to pirate anything they can get their hands on. I think that is why they don't appreciate it - it costs them nothing and it is all treated as trash. Maybe it is akin to Debeers and the diamond trade. If big vinyl had been able to continue to control the market then perhaps music would still be worth something. I'm not necessarily saying that is the way it should be but merely putting forth a possible theory.
It is not hard to see how disposable music has become when a kid with Garage Band and 15 minutes can crank out some drivel that is the next viral sensation garnering scads of rabid fans. One good thing in that scenario is all the 'fans' have pirated copies.
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craigb
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 01:58:53
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Rain
I remember when people started downloading music a friend of mine was so proud to tell me that he had every Zappa album (official ones, I presume), everything by Paul Simon, and basically everything by every artist he liked.
All I could think was - when are you going to listen to all that stuff? Where will you find the time to listen to 60 some Frank Zappa album? And admitting that you ever manage to listen to every single one, what will you get out of it?
It's like people taking a gazillion pictures and filming everything - that stuff just piles up on a hd somewhere.
To this day, I try to keep the same approach. I shop for music on iTunes, put tons of things on my wish list and every now and then, I order one of them on CD (or buy it directly on iTunes if sound quality is irrelevant). And then I stick with it for a while.
Like that most recent Elvis album I bought last week. I listen to it every chance I get. I fell that that's how music stays relevant and really becomes part of your life.
Heh, that's me. I have an unfortunate "completionist" bend to my psyche. I'm almost through enjoying all of Bill Nelson's discography (I have most of it). Sure, it took a few weeks because of listening to other things in-between, but I'm all the way into 2008. My end goal is to be able to create playlists in any of a thousand ways then enjoy them on one of my multiple iPOD's or stream the music eventually. The thing is, I'm listening to music a lot so I don't feel like I have too much of it. Just turn on a radio and it seems you hear the same 120 songs over and over and over and over again.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Rain
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 02:14:24
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craigb
Heh, that's me. I have an unfortunate "completionist" bend to my psyche.
But You DO listen to it. I'm quite sure that my friend never actually listened to a 10th of what he downloaded. I too suffer from the "completionist" syndrome, by the way. But the way my brain is wired, I'll focus on one artist or band until I've completed my collection, and by the time I'm done, I usually know each album very well. So in effect, it counteracts my completionist tendencies.
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craigb
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 03:12:11
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With the occasional (wonderful) exception, I no longer know what song comes from what album. Because I tend to play right through a discography or shuffle play from some set of conditions, I rarely see what album a song comes from. Sometimes I miss this, but then I realize that the reason I could do this when I was younger was simply because I couldn't afford all the music I really wanted so I played the heck out of what I had.
Although I AM listening to quite a bit now, all of this is really setting myself up for the future. Once all my songs have been imported, that's when I'm looking forward to coming up with segments to play as a mood hits. I like a LOT of genres and subgenres so I want to be able to make my own "channels" instead of having a Spotify or Pandora account. I might even get to the point where most of the songs have a rating (ranging from what I enjoy the most to the least and, maybe, a separate tag for which songs are the most popular for when I want to make a playlist that others will also enjoy). Then, I can have dynamic playlists that only cover the songs I enjoy most (usually on days I need a pick-me-up) or playlists of only obscure songs to broaden my knowledge of some artists (for example, A-Ha has almost two-dozen albums which is a lot for a so-called "one hit" wonder - and many are excellent).
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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slartabartfast
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 04:40:54
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This is nuts.
In the 1950's vinyl records were being sold for about $3.00-5.00. The equivalent inflation adjusted price today would be about $30.00-50.00. CD's hit a high of about $18.00 and are still in the $15.00 range. For about $120.00 you can now buy more different songs than there are hours to listen to them in a year via paid on demand streaming, or 6 or 7 CD's that would provide less unique songs than you could go through in an evening, and people are complaining that streaming subscription pricing is too high for them? These are not audiophiles who are buying expensive recordings instead, they are perfectly happy with the quality of the music they are streaming. They are the contemporary incarnation of the same listening public who used to have to babysit or mow lawns for a week to afford a 45 rpm single. Sobering indeed for anyone who hopes to make millions recording music.
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jamesg1213
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 07:59:44
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I can't work it out. Sometimes I wonder if my generation is the last that really puts any value on music, then I see thousands and thousands of young people at Glastonbury, T in The Park etc, who have spent a small fortune to watch bands play live.
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bitflipper
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 09:20:01
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When I first started buying records, they were 99 cents for a single and $3 for an LP. To put that into context, the minimum wage back then was 75 cents an hour, a middle-class income was around $6,000 per year, a new car was $1,500 and nice home could be bought for $10,000.
Records were actually fairly expensive then, even if you did get two songs for your 99 cents. That was 10 times the price of a hamburger, or equal to four gallons of gasoline.
About the same time, I started playing in a band. I'd make between $30 and $50 a night, far more than my part-time day job that paid about $12 per week. That was 1965. Today, I still play in a band and my typical take is $50 a night. I haven't had a raise since $50 would buy you 15 pairs of bluejeans.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 11:13:16
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When I was a student back in the early 1970's in the UK an album cost the equivelent of around 20 pints of beer, today a full price CD about 3 pints. The "too expensive" streaming cost of £7.99 would have just about bought two full price albums.
Or - My monthly starting salery on my first professional job would have bought 25 Albums. Today, based on minimum wage for 18-20 year olds working a 40 hour week about 100 albums for a months earnings.
We used to save, stay in, work over time to get the cash together to buy music.
The again
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batsbrew
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 11:25:55
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Rain
I love albums. Not those overly self-indulgent 90 minutes contemporary records, but albums in the classic sense. I like to sit back with a record sleeve or a cd booklet in my hands and read lyrics and notes and credits. Or just listen. And form some kind of bond with the music, make the record a part of my life.
that describes exactly the kind of product i've been working at putting out, now for almost 10 years. i have 3 full albums out now, that more or less fall into the category that rain defines... and yet it seems the great majority of folk just don't realize what it takes to create these things... that it's not 'junk art', or 'the flavor of the week', but something that is meant to go 'further'... but folks stole music via Napster for so long, and it ends up with a situation like mine..... where i get paid from spotify, google, rumblefish, iTunes, every so often, and the amount is some fraction of a cent that i cannot even relate to. $0.00082062 what is that? LOL i am wrapping up the re-release of my first album, "Trouble", right now... and i'm on the fence with whether or not to even offer cd's for sale, or just do a 'digital' download version of it, because it's not fun ordering a box of cd's and just sitting on it.
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craigb
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 11:38:35
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Glyn Barnes
The "too expensive" streaming cost of £7.99 would have just about bought two full price albums.
Ah, but they're not talking about £7.99, they're only talking about $7.99 which is considerably less!
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Glyn Barnes
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 11:56:14
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craigb
Glyn Barnes
The "too expensive" streaming cost of £7.99 would have just about bought two full price albums.
Ah, but they're not talking about £7.99, they're only talking about $7.99 which is considerably less!
Well to quote the linked article in the OP - a bit confusing but. (well its why I was confused) The YouGov study polled 2,000 UK consumers. Only 10% of the UK adult population are actually paying for a music streaming subscription. They pay an average of £7.07, or $8.67, a month. Cheap for the amount of "content" available be dollars, pounds or euros. Most of the bands I follow these days are small and independent, so I am buying CDs at a gig or directly from the bands website, an in some cases crowd funding. A lot of fan/followers do so least then there is half a chance they won't go bust and continue to make music I like.
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bapu
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 12:06:52
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I wouldn't pay $7.99 for my own music. 
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Glyn Barnes
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tlw
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 15:53:44
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It's not just music, it seems the complaints about "too expensive" turn up anywhere something is downloadable.
For example, I know a small software company that make niche-genre games. People will happily pay £24 for the PC downloadable version, but the port to iPad, which contains everything the PC package does (including multi-player and the same AI as the PC version in single-player) which sells at around £8 or £9 attracts the complaints of "too expensive, ipad apps are cheap and throwaway and should only cost a couple of pounds at most".
There have always been complaints in the UK about CD prices as well. While there is some justification in that UK prices, ignoring taxes, worked out higher than US and even other European prices. As did (and do) a lot of things. Which is pne reason why we were known as "treasure island" by certain far-eastern companies. But the complaints mostly consisted of "a CD costs 50pence, how come I pay £15 for an audio CD? It's a rip-off, should be a couple of quid".
That the audio CD is well-packaged, professionally made and recorded, royalties-paying and any given artist can only produce so much work so needs a decent return on what they do all being ignored. No different to assuming the price of a gig ticket, including even the VAT, goes entirely into the artist's already over-full personal bank account when complaining about paying £20 to see a band.
My personal gripe for many years was the price of Fender, Gibson and Martin instruments and amps in the UK compared to the US. And that Fender US customers got a case included while UK customers were expected to pay another £40-£100 for the same case. To be fair, it seems the import agents of the time (and some retailers) were responsible for some of that, but it wasn't half annoying.
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eph221
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 18:13:55
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batsbrew
Rain
I love albums. Not those overly self-indulgent 90 minutes contemporary records, but albums in the classic sense. I like to sit back with a record sleeve or a cd booklet in my hands and read lyrics and notes and credits. Or just listen. And form some kind of bond with the music, make the record a part of my life.
that describes exactly the kind of product i've been working at putting out,
now for almost 10 years.
i have 3 full albums out now,
that more or less fall into the category that rain defines...
and yet it seems the great majority of folk just don't realize what it takes to create these things...
that it's not 'junk art', or 'the flavor of the week', but something that is meant to go 'further'...
but folks stole music via Napster for so long,
and it ends up with a situation like mine.....
where i get paid from spotify, google, rumblefish, iTunes, every so often,
and the amount is some fraction of a cent that i cannot even relate to.
$0.00082062
what is that?
LOL
i am wrapping up the re-release of my first album, "Trouble", right now...
and i'm on the fence with whether or not to even offer cd's for sale,
or just do a 'digital' download version of it,
because it's not fun ordering a box of cd's and just sitting on it.
I was a bit of a classical guitar snob because I got so good. What I learned was that the audiences need to be educated about the music itself. In other words you have to EXPLAIN the music in order for them to appreciate it and value it. There were a lot of poseurs everywhere, people who wouldn't even get past the first stage of a competition, trying to convince audiences that they're great players. The audiences didn't even know the difference! (mostly a problem on the west coast). The other thing I've noticed about audiences recently (and this is born out by the raise in ticket sales) is that their value propositions are EXPERIENCES. So to sell records it needs to be explained to them why you're worth listening to viz an experience.
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bapu
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/26 18:46:48
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☄ Helpfulby eph221 2016/10/27 15:49:28
eph221
In other words you have to EXPLAIN the music in order for them to appreciate it and value it.
Pedro has been trying to do that for years here. I'm still not sure what he's on about.
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craigb
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/27 03:28:44
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Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/27 10:27:30
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People will always whine that everything they want is too expensive. I've studied this for a bit and I think I understand it now.
Teeming Masses: "We want that thing that you have."
Artist: "Great! You can buy it for $7.99."
Disgruntled Horde: "But, if we give you our money, we'll have less and that will hurt our Feewings."
Artist: "Uh, it's only $7.99. It took me three years to create it."
Belligerent Crowd: "Who cares about you? You want to take our money. You're bad. You don't care about our Feewings."
Artist: "What?"
Angry Mob: "Give it us! We wants it! We needs it! Give us our Precious!"
Artist: "That escalated quickly."
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jamesg1213
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/27 15:13:29
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UbiquitousBubba
People will always whine that everything they want is too expensive. I've studied this for a bit and I think I understand it now.
Teeming Masses: "We want that thing that you have."
Artist: "Great! You can buy it for $7.99."
Disgruntled Horde: "But, if we give you our money, we'll have less and that will hurt our Feewings."
Artist: "Uh, it's only $7.99. It took me three years to create it."
Belligerent Crowd: "Who cares about you? You want to take our money. You're bad. You don't care about our Feewings."
Artist: "What?"
Angry Mob: "Give it us! We wants it! We needs it! Give us our Precious!"
Artist: "That escalated quickly."
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craigb
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/27 23:18:45
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UbiquitousBubba
People will always whine that everything they want is too expensive. I've studied this for a bit and I think I understand it now.
Teeming Masses: "We want that thing that you have."
Artist: "Great! You can buy it for $7.99."
Disgruntled Horde: "But, if we give you our money, we'll have less and that will hurt our Feewings."
Artist: "Uh, it's only $7.99. It took me three years to create it."
Belligerent Crowd: "Who cares about you? You want to take our money. You're bad. You don't care about our Feewings."
Artist: "What?"
Angry Mob: "Give it us! We wants it! We needs it! Give us our Precious!"
Artist: "That escalated quickly."
Wow, what a thoughtless artist! He should give the horde $7.99 along with his music. I think a mass protest to government officials should bring about this change, ya?
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Moshkito
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/27 23:21:39
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Glyn Barnes
bapu
I wouldn't pay $7.99 for my own music.
Most people would pay a lot more than $7.99 to avoid listening to mine. 
So, the Coffee House is now the old ladies tearing up because ... because ... ... really ... ... let me get my hanky and join you guys! ... I would buy mine, btw! AND, I've said it many times ... I would buy the CHB stuff in a minute if it showed up on CD. I think it is a lot better than some crap out there, and funnier!
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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SergeQ
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Re: $7.99 too expensive?
2016/10/28 05:16:51
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it's not too expensive, but people prefer to pay once and use forever
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