TranceCanada
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Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
I've been looking into getting a trigger pad or something similar so I could more easily control the Matrix view, but every one I look at only mentions controlling Ableton Live, I think one may have mentioned compatibility with FL Studio. I have no interest jumping ship and heading over to Ableton just so I can use a trigger pad. So I guess my question is, just because a controllers description only mentions Ableton does that mean they won't work well with another DAW like Sonar?
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ampfixer
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/03 13:47:08
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I have an Alesis trigger pad. IT has no special bindings and can be used with anything. Each pad has an assignable midi note so you can set it up with just about anything. I'm not using it because I have very little space and no place to put it. I used it with BFD and Kontakt so I know it works well. It also has real midi connectors.
If you lived close to Hamilton we could work out something. Canada is a big place.
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TranceCanada
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/03 15:35:45
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I'm on the West coast. But I was thinking of something more like an Akai APC Mini or something similar that may have a grid of 8x8 or more, the Alesis looks more like a drum pad
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azslow3
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/03 17:16:03
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2016/11/05 12:44:32
Several notes about Matrix in Sonar and pad controllers (I guess CW has never tried to use that combination during development...)
* Most MIDI trigger pads have LEDs under pads. There is no way to use them in Sonar (in Matrix view).
* In case you never use SoftSynth in your project, the following is non issue, otherwise... There is nasty general bug in Sonar MIDI learning, for which I have found only partial workarounds:
a) "MIDI Learned" controls are not blocking assigned MIDI. F.e. in case you use C4 for your first cell and it happened you set current MIDI track to "Omni", C4 not only will start/stop the cell, but also play note in your synth. Especially "funny" with CCs, some of them (f.e. 7) simply turn off the sound of the synth without any visual indication.
b) "MIDI Learned" controls are not bound to particular device. So, if you assigned C4 from APC Mini, C4 from your keyboard will also trigger the cell
Workarounds:
For (a):
1. carefully assign input device for each MIDI track (instead of default omni). Easy to forget and assigned device can be disconnected, reverting input to omni... The same problem as when using VSTs with MIDI output enabled (I call that Sonar MIDI routing nightmare)
2. Use AZ Controller to block whole device or particular controls from "leaking" into MIDI tracks. When trigger device has additional controls (like ACP Mini), the "bonus" of this method is a possibility to use these controls for something (f.e. Volume, Mute, Solo, when used such way, LEDs can be used to indicate current status. But I repeat, Control Surface API has no access to the Matrix).
For (b):
1. while Matrix react on any device, you can select on which channel it react. So you put trigger device on channel 1 and your keyboard on channel 2, then keyboard will not trigger cells. In case trigger device is not configurable (like APC Mini), you are forced to keep keyboard outside of channel 1, which can be inconvenient since it also will record MIDI with other channel (many people record always on one channel and that channel is 1, helps when combining different clips, also imported MIDI is usually on channel 1).
2. if Trigger is configurable, it make sense to use CC (hi numbers) instead of keys. Such CCs, unlike keys, are normally not in use when you play SoftSynth in parallel with matrix.
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TranceCanada
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/03 18:11:35
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Wow, so it sounds like if Cakewalk want to actually make their Matrix View worth using they need to focus on better integration with a controller then?
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azslow3
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 03:39:34
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TranceCanada
Wow, so it sounds like if Cakewalk want to actually make their Matrix View worth using they need to focus on better integration with a controller then?
From many posts it looks like most Sonar users have never tried it. Other use it as a "clipboard with audition", quick way to preview loops combination, etc. As a home player with several computers, Ableton license does not look good for me and while with mentioned workarounds I have managed to use it, I wish CW upgrade that part.
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Mystic38
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 06:59:27
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This +1 TranceCanada
Wow, so it sounds like if Cakewalk want to actually make their Matrix View worth using they need to focus on better integration with a controller then?
Sadly controller integration is one of the weakest points of Sonar.. a Novation launchpad is a good solution to your needs... but i would suggest up the ante to the Launchpad pro as it has velocity sensitive pads, midi ch selection, and scale mode, so can double up as a grid keyboard.. There will be no feedback from matrix, but at least the pads will light when you hit them
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azslow3
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 09:11:59
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Mystic38
Sadly controller integration is one of the weakest points of Sonar..
I disagree with such generalization. The are only several PARTS of Sonar, for which controller integration is weak: * Matrix (no controller integration at all, so "MIDI learn" only) * Folders (the same as with Matrix) * ProChannel (the integration is there, but it is suffering from too many bugs) * Content editing (existing integration is hard to use in practice). The whole Mixing (apart from 2 bugs: with Record on Instrument tracks and sends to AUX tracks), the transport (including loops/punches/jogging/markers/etc.) and plug-ins (hard to setup, but once done it works fine) can be bi-directionally controlled. Keyboard bindings are also available for controllers (uni-directional). So for "primary" audience and purpose (recording audio/MIDI instruments and mixing), Sonar has reasonable integration (possibility!) for surfaces. There are just Matrix and Folders which was "completely forgotten" (editing is way simpler with mouse in any case).
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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TranceCanada
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 10:08:32
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azslow3
Mystic38
Sadly controller integration is one of the weakest points of Sonar..
I disagree with such generalization. The are only several PARTS of Sonar, for which controller integration is weak:
* Matrix (no controller integration at all, so "MIDI learn" only)
* Folders (the same as with Matrix)
* ProChannel (the integration is there, but it is suffering from too many bugs)
* Content editing (existing integration is hard to use in practice).
The whole Mixing (apart from 2 bugs: with Record on Instrument tracks and sends to AUX tracks), the transport (including loops/punches/jogging/markers/etc.) and plug-ins (hard to setup, but once done it works fine) can be bi-directionally controlled. Keyboard bindings are also available for controllers (uni-directional).
So for "primary" audience and purpose (recording audio/MIDI instruments and mixing), Sonar has reasonable integration (possibility!) for surfaces. There are just Matrix and Folders which was "completely forgotten" (editing is way simpler with mouse in any case).
But to be honest, the Matrix was created in response to Ableton Live performance so you would expect pad control integration to be integral to the functions of the Matrix. I mean why even add a feature if it's only half thought out and still so many years later incomplete. The Matrix is something I've been interested in for a long time but without the integration of midi control, specifically trigger pads, I don't see how it could really be useful enough to integrate it into my work flow
Cakewalk: Sonar Platinum x64 (Lifetime), Producer X3e, Producer X2 Soft Synths: Z3TA+2, Rapture Pro, Xpand2, Serum System 1: HP Envy23, Win10 x64, Core i7-3770 3.1Ghz, 8GB Ram System 2: Microsoft Surface Pro 3, Win10 x64, Core i5-4300U 1.9Ghz/2.5Ghz, 4GB Ram Audio: M-Audio M-Box Mini 2 Controllers: Edirol PCR-M80
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azslow3
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 13:08:57
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TranceCanada
But to be honest, the Matrix was created in response to Ableton Live performance so you would expect pad control integration to be integral to the functions of the Matrix. I mean why even add a feature if it's only half thought out and still so many years later incomplete. The Matrix is something I've been interested in for a long time but without the integration of midi control, specifically trigger pads, I don't see how it could really be useful enough to integrate it into my work flow
The "Sampler" thread has some clarifications for that... Long time ago CW has developed several tools/plug-ins/features into sample triggering direction. Unfortunately that was too late/too early/not sufficient/over complicated/too simple, and so these staff, while still there, is "forgotten". Matrix view (sampler, etc.) in Sonar can be successfully used. But not on the level of Ableton Live and no-one claim that.
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TheMaartian
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 16:21:34
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This thread has caused me to add the Alesis SamplePad Pro to my B.F. wish list. 
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TranceCanada
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 17:19:09
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azslow3
TranceCanada
But to be honest, the Matrix was created in response to Ableton Live performance so you would expect pad control integration to be integral to the functions of the Matrix. I mean why even add a feature if it's only half thought out and still so many years later incomplete. The Matrix is something I've been interested in for a long time but without the integration of midi control, specifically trigger pads, I don't see how it could really be useful enough to integrate it into my work flow
The "Sampler" thread has some clarifications for that... Long time ago CW has developed several tools/plug-ins/features into sample triggering direction. Unfortunately that was too late/too early/not sufficient/over complicated/too simple, and so these staff, while still there, is "forgotten".
Matrix view (sampler, etc.) in Sonar can be successfully used. But not on the level of Ableton Live and no-one claim that.
I was trying to follow that thread, but it kind blew up a little quick to keep up with
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Mystic38
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Re: Trigger pad that'll work with Sonar?
2016/11/04 21:44:27
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2016/11/05 12:44:59
Open up Ableton Live, find your controller and bam everything is seamlessly mapped.. native VST are already mapped, and non-native ones are a breeze to setup... even midi learn is simpler than Sonar. After 8 years or more with Sonar I was simply STUNNED. imo, nothing about controllers is easy with Sonar. To me it has been a headache of setup, fraught with unreliable connections and weak functionality.. I will certainly bow to your intensive knowledge of current integration level but just add thats a pretty compelling list of things that can't be done.. and Matrix was a pointless development without addressing the 2-way communication with a grid controller. azslow3
I disagree with such generalization. The are only several PARTS of Sonar, for which controller integration is weak:
* Matrix (no controller integration at all, so "MIDI learn" only)
* Folders (the same as with Matrix)
* ProChannel (the integration is there, but it is suffering from too many bugs)
* Content editing (existing integration is hard to use in practice).
The whole Mixing (apart from 2 bugs: with Record on Instrument tracks and sends to AUX tracks), the transport (including loops/punches/jogging/markers/etc.) and plug-ins (hard to setup, but once done it works fine) can be bi-directionally controlled. Keyboard bindings are also available for controllers (uni-directional).
So for "primary" audience and purpose (recording audio/MIDI instruments and mixing), Sonar has reasonable integration (possibility!) for surfaces. There are just Matrix and Folders which was "completely forgotten" (editing is way simpler with mouse in any case).
HPE-580T with i7-950, 8G, 1.5T, ATI6850, Win7/64, Motu 828 III Hybrid, Motu Midi Express, Sonar Platinum, Komplete 9, Ableton Live 9 & Push 2, Melodyne Editor and other stuff, KRK VXT8 Monitors Virus Ti2 Polar, Fantom G6, Yamaha S70XS, Novation Nova, Novation Nova II, Korg MS2000, Waldorf Micro Q, NI Maschine Studio, TC-VoiceLive Rack, 2012 Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2001 Gibson Les Paul DC, 1999 Fender Am Hardtail Strat, Fender Blues Jr, Orange TH30/PPC212, Tak EF360GF, one mic, no talent.
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