AdrianNewington
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[Solved] Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
Hello, I'm a bit confused as to why I am getting gain loss at the Master Buss. In the screen shot below, I have put 1 track on solo, and deliberately pushed the gain of that track to illustrate the loss of gain at the Master Bus. If the track is on solo, and no other plugins or sends are active, then why wouldn't the level at the master buss be the same as the track level? I thought it would have been 1 to 1. I'm trying to understand why I'm having to boost all my tracks, in order to get a mix that doesn't require heaps & heaps of gain boosting in the mastering phase. Thanks Adrian
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chuckebaby
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 20:15:04
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are you sure the pro channel is not active ? your photo is very small so its hard to make out what the -7.9 is ? (underneath the vocal reverb)
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 20:18:45
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Hi Chuck, No gain changes via Pro Channel. Although I did have the EQ turned on, it was set to flat response. I turned it off to ensure it was not influencing the condition I'm experiencing. No change... question still valid.
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Unknowen
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 20:18:52
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Do you have both buss meters set the same? Edit, also I had stuff like this happen in 2016 10, I had to rollback...
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 20:20:38
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Hi Passive, I right-clicked on the Track & Bus meter, and they are both set at -60dB.
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bitflipper
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 20:38:28
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The obvious variable you haven't taken out of the equation for troubleshooting is the limiter. Bypass it and verify that the level's exactly the same as what the track is reporting.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 20:42:42
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Oh Yes, the limiter, but it was only set to stop any very high level clipping, and no gain reduction. Anyway, I disabled it to ensure my question still stands. It's my default mater bus plugin. So the mystery still continues. So am I right in expecting that there should be no gain reduction of my solo'd track at the master bus?
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gswitz
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 21:36:57
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Yes, you are correct that if you have a track running at one level, with no effects or gain adjustments or panning routes to a bus, the bus shows the same level. You are missing something. There is an input gain on the track and the bus. Any effect, in the FX Bin or the Pro Channel could change the gain. You can rule out FXs by clicking E to bypass all FXs. Once that's done, there should only be the track routed to the bus (it's volume fader, gain and pan) and input gain on the bus (fader and pan can impact output level but not input level - you can set the meter for either).
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/06 21:40:06
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As an after-thought, there is also clip gain that is different from track gain. I do not expect you will discover this to be your problem.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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mettelus
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 00:31:41
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Pan laws? You are also sending a panned mono track to a stereo buss.
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BASSJOKER
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 00:36:52
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bitflipper
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 01:07:11
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The pan law theory doesn't, er, pan out because even if you were using the -6dB center pan law that would not account for a 7.5 dB drop. Completely remove (not just bypass) all effects and see if the problem persists. Although unlikely, make sure there aren't any clip effects. Also verify that the track interleave is set to mono. I am suspicious of the track effects because one or more of them may be forcing interleave toggles, which happens when you mix and match mono and stereo effects. If any of them were to introduce a phase shift, that could reduce the level. However, I'd expect that kind of problem to be audible, as a thin-sounding track. It's also possible that one of them is causing a level drop even when bypassed, an unusual but not unheard-of behavior.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 04:14:10
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One other that's not visible in your screenshot is the fader level of the Master Buss. Make sure it's at 0dB!
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 04:31:13
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I FIXED IT!!!.... But very weird. I decided to create another Bus and set this as a New Master Bus. Wallah!... got my missing gain restored. So I deleted the original Bus, and renamed my new Bus to "MASTER" AWESOME. Now another point I would like to make, is that this song was originally created many years ago in Sonar 6, and it is only recently that I decided to re-visit it and use my improved mixing skills to get a more polished mix. I located the old Sonar 6 Producer Bundle file from 2005, and imported it, (without any issues... apart from a few missing plugins that I don't have at this time), and away it all went. Hmmm... a tricky one eh?!?!? Cheers, and thanks for your inout. Adrian.
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bitflipper
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 10:21:16
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I just hate it when I accidentally "fix" a problem without knowing what it is that I did. That's like scaring away a burglar, only to forever ponder how long it'll be before he returns.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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brundlefly
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 10:34:04
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AdrianNewington So I deleted the original Bus, and renamed my new Bus to "MASTER"
Has the Vocal Reverb bus been redirected to the new Master? I was going to suggest that the reverb bus signal might might be cancelling some of the direct signal from the track.
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 13:14:51
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The reverb send, including the other sends, and all the FX's were turned off. Just implementing a new master bus alone Fixed everything.
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brundlefly
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 18:03:01
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Doesn't appear anyone ever suggested to check Gain/Volume settings in Offset mode, which would be another likely cuprit. You might re-open the oriignal bundle and check for that.
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 18:51:57
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How do I do that? I'm not familiar with this offset mode you suggest. Thanks
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John
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 20:07:04
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gswitz
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/07 21:46:42
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John, does O still default to offset? I thought they changed it.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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John
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/08 07:31:29
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Maybe not but one can click the click the Offset mode button in the Control Bar’s Mix module.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/08 12:32:53
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AdrianNewington How do I do that? I'm not familiar with this offset mode you suggest. Thanks
Offset Mode gives you the ability to temporarily override your automation to apply fixed increase/decrease. - Engage Offset Mode
- Make your changes
- Disengage Offset Mode
You can find the button to toggle it on/off in the Mix module:
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AdrianNewington
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/08 14:27:28
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From what I can see, my Sonar X1 producer doesn't have such a feature. Here is my Mix Module on the Control Bar.
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reginaldStjohn
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/08 14:51:35
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For your version you would need to hit the 'O' key to enter offset mode
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/08 15:08:11
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Sorry, I should have read your signature Yea, 'O' is the toggle If it's enabled you will see little '+' signs next to track faders amongst others
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ryecatchermark
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Re: Gain Loss at the Master Bus. Help!
2016/11/08 19:21:36
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I had a similar problem when opening old Sonar X1 sessions in Sonar Platinum. Individual tracks would not play out at accurate volumes. Once I changed their GAIN knob a bit and put it back to where it was, the volumes returned to their proper value. After saving the new session, everything stayed fine when re-opening the session later. Just a bug I guess? Mark.
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