Bendability of strings

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silvercn
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2016/11/07 19:02:58 (permalink)

Bendability of strings

I am doing some tutorials for playing acoustic  blues. I know it's not supposed to be a piece of cake but wondering: is string bendability ( aside from one'side finger strenght) a function of the string type, guitar structure, etc. The bends I see on video seem effortless as if the strings are loose. Mine seem to resist bending with their life!!! My Acoustic is an Alvarez cutaway and strings Elixir, nanoweb lights. Thanks
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/07 20:42:11 (permalink)
    It's a combination of string thickness and the scale length of the guitar combined with hand strength. I have a video of David Gilmour playing an electric guitar lead on an acoustic. Don't know how he does it but he does use non-standard string gauges. 

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    dwardzala
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/07 20:59:48 (permalink)
    A lot of guitarists, especially blues guitarist, tune down a half or even a full step.  This puts less tension on the strings and makes them easier to bend.  Often you need to set up the guitar for that tuning to avoid string buzz.

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/07 21:06:40 (permalink)
    I would think that metallurgical content and plating/coating would effect elasticity. Metal guitar strings are, after all, complex alloys created for specific properties; I'd guess that elasticity is one of them.
     
    If you're doing serious research, I'd contact Dunlop Manufacturing. They manufacture most of the guitar string brands you've ever heard of, and their chief string designer Les O'Connor is a SONAR user. He doesn't stop by the forums much any more, but his online handle was TheStringMaster.


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    mettelus
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/07 21:48:16 (permalink)
    The above hit on everything, I think, but to sum it all up in terms of tension (what you are "fighting" to bend a string):
     
    Thinner strings have less tension than thicker for the same note.
    Shorter scale length requires less tension for the same note.
    Tuning down lessens the tension on the strings by default.
     
    Acoustic strings are thicker versus electrics for the same notes, so higher tension; but a couple things to also consider:
     
    Heavier strings have better sustain and are louder.
    More tension (if rigidly mounted) has better sustain.
    Altering a guitar from its designed strings may involve tension rod and/or bridge adjustment, so you can use less tension, but possibly at the expense of string buzzing.
     

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    #5
    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/08 08:11:27 (permalink)
    For an acoustic guitar, the normal mantra is to use heavier gauge strings than you would for an electric. The heavier the string gauges are, the better the tone tends to be.  However, the trade-off is that you quickly lose the ability to do any sort of meaningful bends.  I have known a few players who used heavy gauge strings on electrics.
    I love EB Super slinky .009's on my electric.  A nice balance between tone and bend-ability.  I used them on my acoustic for a while to get that bending thing on it.  However, the tone was weak.  I didn't want to go to heavy on my first acoustic since the neck had been broken and repaired.  I use a heavier gauge string on my Taylor and the tone is impeccable.
     
    I read a story many years ago in Guitar Player magazine that in the Nashville studios of the time, they were using really heavy gauge strings to get a classic tone. High E at .015 comes to mind. And.... they were changing the strings after approximately 15 to 20 minutes of playing time since they claimed that the tonal quality of the heavy strings was diminished quickly and noticeably. I don't think I'd be doing that.... but yeah, the heavier gauge strings, to my experience have been harder to bend but the tone quality makes up for what you lose in being able to bend the notes efficiently.
     
    All that aside.... one guy on FB who was in the group of musicians I was hanging with back in the day is talking about some strings that are .007 on the high E...... like playing on air..... he says Billy Gibbons is a solid user of that brand.  Dunlop Reverend Willy Extra Lite Guitar Strings... disclaimer... I have not tried them.

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    karma1959
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/08 08:14:40 (permalink)
    - String gauge (obviously heavier gauge strings are harder to bend)
    - Pitch - as above, some players tune down a half step to 430, which obviously makes things looser than 440.
    - Guitar's scale length - shorter scale lengths are easier to bend than longer
    - String types:  steel string will be slightly harder than steel / nickel or bronze.  Pure nickel (more applicable to electric guitars than acoustics) will be a bit easier to bend than a combo of nickel / steel.  Nylon is easier to bend than all the others, but I suspect your question is more aimed at steel strings or steel / bronze for acoustics.
    - One additional item others haven't noted yet is frets.  I've found higher frets make sting bending quite a bit easier than guitars with lower frets.
    - Hand strength.  When I've gone up to a higher string gauge to get a bigger sound, it's taken me several months of playing almost daily to build up the hand strength (and calluses) to be able to play comfortably.

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    jude77
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/08 23:00:30 (permalink)
    dwardzala
    A lot of guitarists, especially blues guitarist, tune down a half or even a full step.  This puts less tension on the strings and makes them easier to bend.  Often you need to set up the guitar for that tuning to avoid string buzz.


    I'm pretty sure this was true for Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/09 08:48:46 (permalink)
    karma1959
     
    - Guitar's scale length - shorter scale lengths are easier to bend than longer
     
    - One additional item others haven't noted yet is frets.  I've found higher frets make sting bending quite a bit easier than guitars with lower frets.
     
    - Hand strength.  When I've gone up to a higher string gauge to get a bigger sound, it's taken me several months of playing almost daily to build up the hand strength (and calluses) to be able to play comfortably.




    I don't think the scale length matters too much. And the frets themselves don't make a difference.  I do think that where... in relation to the fixed ends of the strings, you are trying to bend, makes a huge difference. If you bend in the center of the string..... on the "higher" frets, you have much more elasticity in the strings due to being further from their anchor points at the nut and the bridge, and can push it further out of it's line. Closer to the nut end "on the lower frets"  for example, and its harder to push it off that line. I'm sure there's a better explanation that uses calculus and physics to explain it.
     
    And physical hand strength matters a lot.

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    fret_man
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/09 09:51:30 (permalink)
    Fretboard radius affects bending as well. Strings are easier to bend on a flatter fretboard since the string doesn't "choke out" during a bend when the string loses contact with the fret wire as its pushed across the neck.
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    drewfx1
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/09 13:10:41 (permalink)
    1. AFAIK, most standard acoustic guitars have scale lengths similar to electrics.
     
    2. With a few exceptions, the unwound strings in acoustic string sets are identical plain steel strings as used in electric sets. The gauge of course matters, and as discussed above, popular acoustic sets are often heavier gauge.
     
    3. String tension is a function of pitch, scale length and the mass of the string, which is determined by the string's gauge, material and construction (wound vs. unwound, etc.).
     
    4. String length outside the speaking length of the string (i.e. the length outside of the nut and bridge saddles) can affect the feel of a bend while bending, but ultimately reaching a given pitch is based on the factors listed in #3 above.
     
    Pretty much everything else is on the player in terms of proper technique (!), hand strength, etc.

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    eph221
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/09 16:57:37 (permalink)
    karma1959
    - String gauge (obviously heavier gauge strings are harder to bend)
    - Pitch - as above, some players tune down a half step to 430, which obviously makes things looser than 440.
    - Guitar's scale length - shorter scale lengths are easier to bend than longer
    - String types:  steel string will be slightly harder than steel / nickel or bronze.  Pure nickel (more applicable to electric guitars than acoustics) will be a bit easier to bend than a combo of nickel / steel.  Nylon is easier to bend than all the others, but I suspect your question is more aimed at steel strings or steel / bronze for acoustics.
    - One additional item others haven't noted yet is frets.  I've found higher frets make sting bending quite a bit easier than guitars with lower frets.
    - Hand strength.  When I've gone up to a higher string gauge to get a bigger sound, it's taken me several months of playing almost daily to build up the hand strength (and calluses) to be able to play comfortably.




     
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    batsbrew
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/10 11:09:21 (permalink)
    just bend em!@!
     
    bend em like you mean it!
    commit!
    commit!
     
    and don't bend sharp, like buddy guy does.
     
    (i love that guy)

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    tlw
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/10 17:51:53 (permalink)
    A few other things that affect string bending...

    Action. Too low an action makes string-bending harder.

    A Gibson-style stopbar tailpiece that's too low makes bending harder. Don't know why tailpiece height and therefore string break angle over the bridge alters string tension as far as bends are concerned, but it does. Too high a tailpiece is bad for other reasons, the trick is adjusting it until it works best for you.

    Neck relief makes a difference as well, as does nut height on the lower frets.

    Personally I don't find a tall fret height makes bending easier, but for me tall/jumbo frets have a negative effect on intonation, I suspect that might be because I fret with a higher pressure than some and when I press the string down behind a tall fret that bends it slightly sharp. My personally favourite guitars all have low, vintage frets and a moderately high action by shredder standards.

    Electric guitars are very sensitive to how the musician plays, and what one person finds a dreadful setup is probably someone else's ideal. Within reason of course. An action where you can slide a pencil under the string at the 12th fret without contacting the string is generally agreed to be bad for anything other than lap-steel styles. Though I've come across two or three acoustic guitars exactly like that whose owners had been manfully (or womanfully) fighting the instrument for years. One insisted the setup must be "perfect" because that's how it was when they bought it new. Doh.

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    TheMaartian
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/10 18:21:11 (permalink)
    batsbrew
    just bend em!@!
     
    bend em like you mean it!
    commit!
    commit!
     
    and don't bend sharp, like buddy guy does.
     
    (i love that guy)


    Buddy Guy is how I got hooked on Miles Davis!
     
    I saw a PBS show in the summer of '65.
     
    The first half hour was Mississippi John Hurt sitting alone on stage with a resonator, playing the delta blues like I knew from Gaslight Square in St. Louis. I'd hop the bus after my parents went to sleep and head down to G.S. and get a slice and a Coke for 25 cents and sit outside and listen to the old river blues until the last bus. I was in heaven.
     
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    And then the music started. WTF!!! That weren't no blues. WTF!!!
     
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    Kev999
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/10 21:54:47 (permalink)
    Apparently Steve Howe uses the same gauge string for both the top E and second B. Both 12, which is considered heavy for an E but light for a B. Obviously he never bends the top string, only the second.

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    Kamikaze
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/11 00:25:50 (permalink)
    From looking into flat wounds for my bass, it seems that the same gauge and same material can still produce different stiffness from different companies. The winding process is a factor too. LaBalla flats are stiffer than GHS

     
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    mettelus
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/11 01:32:41 (permalink)
    Another point I forgot earlier but would not really come into play on an acoustic is the width of the nut/saddle. The electric I use most has the narrowest standard nut, so a full bend can catch 3 other strings. Conversely, the widest nut I have only catches 2, so with identical strings the force for bending is significantly less on the wider nut.

    On a typical acoustic, higher tension requires less distance to bend, but will still catch 2 other strings most often doing so. If only bending one string would be a lot easier.

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/11 10:26:42 (permalink)
    When I played guitar in a band, I used ultra-light strings. Ernie Ball Super Slinky. Not for bending, though. It was because I'm a delicate keyboard player and will never need to pound nails with the callouses on my fingers.
     
    The downside: I could never put fresh strings on right before a gig because they'd need 3 days to stretch enough to stay in tune. Plus I played a Rickenbacker 12-string, which was never quite in tune anyway. 


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    Kamikaze
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    Re: Bendability of strings 2016/11/11 21:38:00 (permalink)
    I've got nylon tapewounds on my acoustic bass. I ordered in new strings in from Germany for all my guitars, as there is little choice here. They were a gamble. They felt so floppy, like rubber bands when I first put them on, I thought I had made a mistake. They settled in quickly, and now I love them. When I go back to my Jazz bass they feel like steal bars in comparison.

     
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