cparmerlee
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Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
My rig is set up in a spare bedroom that is about 15' by 15' (somewhat irregular shape). Most of my work is mixing stuff that was tracked elsewhere. If I do any recording in that space, it is just a single instrument or sometimes several singers. So my priority is on hearing the material accurately. I have been using a pair of Yamaha MSP5 monitors. These are very nice 2-way speakers with a 5" LF driver. I think they are intended for near-field placement. Mine are actually set on some shelves across the room. The left one is 9 feet from my ears. The right one is 10.5 feet from my ears. That gives a stereo imbalance, but was necessary because of the doorway. I'm looking to improve my monitor setup. If I went with larger monitors, the only way to mount them symmetrically would be to fly them from the ceiling. That may be a bit much at this stage. I could get some floor stands to mount the MSP5s closer to my workstation. That seems like the easiest way to make a quick improvement. So my question really is, when using these smaller monitors, what is the ideal placement, distance from ears and separation left to right? Any insights and opinions are welcome.
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John
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/13 21:18:44
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I would look at some monitors with a minimum 8 inch woofers for near field monitors. The tweeters can be just about anything as long as they sound good to you. For near field monitors you need to have them set equal distanced from your listening location. They should be angled toward you. One thing to keep in mind about near fields is they have very narrow dispersion in the higher frequencies. Regular loud speaker try to have as wide dispersion as possible to fill a room. Bass frequencies generally are non directional. Transients usually have a high frequency component that gives direction. So bass with a sharp hit to them will have a location. You may need to treat your room with acoustic bass traps and absorbent treatment to lessen echoes. Try to avoid standing waves where your primary listening location is. If the room is oddly shaped that can either help or exacerbate standing waves. BTW standing waves are acoustic waves either reinforced by being in phase due to reflection or diminished from being out of phase for the same reason. These are just general guide lines for setting up monitors. This subject is huge and can't be fully discussed on a forum.
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AT
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/13 23:20:37
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John's got the basics right. The MP5s are nice speakers - major studios will use them as their nearfields. But you need to be closer to them if you are to get any sense of bass. Ideally, your speakers and head form an isosceles triangle.
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BobbyT
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/13 23:45:07
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Get your speakers as close as possible to your ears,if you have to use speaker stands thats great,use a peace of string to measure from the center of the left speaker cone to the center of the right speaker cone,then with that measurement stretch the string out from the center of the left speaker to where your left ear would be,then the same on the right forming an equilateral triangle.make sure your tweeters are level with your ears. this helps me alot hope it helps you as much.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/13 23:47:12
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AT But you need to be closer to them if you are to get any sense of bass. Ideally, your speakers and head form an isosceles triangle.
Can you give me a rough idea of how close? With my furniture arrangement, it would be easy to use floor stands such that each speaker would be about 35 degrees off center and about 3.5 feet from my ears. The only drawback to that is that if somebody else is working with me on a mix, they wouldn't be in a good place. But I guess I could re-position the speakers a little in those cases.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 05:46:34
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Any more than about 5 feet away and you're in dangerous territory. I'd say between 3 and 4 feet is the optimum distance
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chuckebaby
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 07:10:26
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I have tried many different speaker arrangements (distance wise). I have tried the 3 triangle, ive tried the 5 - 3 spread triangle But(and this is important) *The tests that I've done in my room, I have found that a 6 ft spread, at approx. 3.5 feet away works perfect. Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet...but the speakers are at ear height. My Control Room is 8 feet wide by 16 feet long. The spears are set up to travel the distance of the room, not the travel the width. I also have several sets of speakers for A/B comparisons. My speakers are wired with Balanced cables (XLR) and each set is patched in to a 16 port patchbay. This is so I can switch speakers out quickly for different listening environments. as well as Stereo, Mono. Room treatment really helps as well. if I had to suggest anything to start with, it would be bass traps. However, this is not always practical in a house, bedroom setting. so any good sound foam will do. These need to be placed strategically.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 07:30:41
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Yep, bass traps in the corners are rhe first area to be treated. If you can, then start on the mirror points. Get a willing accomplice to slide a mirror on the walls to your left & right as you sit in your chair. When you can see the speakers reflection, that's your mirror (first reflection) points After that maybe a ceiling cloud, angled slightly up/away from you as it goes backwards
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 10:21:21
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Do have room for speaker stands? That could enable you to a) get the speakers closer to your ears, b) get them properly triangulated, and c) get them as far from walls as possible. I'm not sure 8" woofers will really do that much for you. In a large room with acoustic treatments, yes. But in a mostly square room, deeper bass response is likely to compound your problems.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 12:07:40
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I appreciate all the ideas. I'm going to install speaker stands today and get those speakers closer. That should help a lot. Then I'll start planning bass traps. One problem with my arrangement is that there is a large window and glass door right where the speakers will be aiming. It would be a major undertaking to move the furniture around, and I like the karma of working by that window. I don't have drapes -- I use blinds -- and to preserve domestic tranquility, I probably cannot alter the window setup. I am thinking about locating sound traps on the perpendicular walls where sound would go after reflecting off the glass. Does that make any sense? I should also mention that the room is fully carpeted and has a lot of instruments on shelves on every wall surface, so most of the walls are not exposed as flat surfaces already. The ceiling is textured, which also probably helps a little. Most of what I do is jazz, so it doesn't have as much of the thundering bass and kick drums as other art forms. We do get some strong bari sax and bass trombone vibes though.
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tlw
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 13:45:42
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To reduce the reflections created by the window try something on the wall opposite that adds difraction so the sound doesn't keep bouncing from one to the other. A "live end/dead end" approach might be appropriate, where one side of the room, typically behind the listening spot, is left acoustically "live" and the opposite end of the room gets the damping. It's very much a matter of experimentation though.
One thing that might help quite a bit is getting the monitors to four or so feet from you and the same distance apart Nearfields are generally intended to be used close to the listener, and often really need to be at least a couple of feet from a wall either to their side or rear, otherwise the bass gets ramped up. Though that's more of an issue with larger speakers than 5". Setting up a position that works equally well across a wider listening area can be very difficult indeed. Speakers too far apart don't produce a wider "sweet spot" but a hole in the middle which makes hearing what's going on in the centre very difficult - which is one reason most live mixes are in mono. I'd be tempted to put your current nearfields close to the listening spot and a couple of 8" or so monitors further away, though if it's a choice between more speakers and killing obvious room reflection and reverb issues I'd go for sorting the room out a it first.
There's no need to spend huge amounts of money on commercially-made bass traps or other reflection-killing traps, much can be done using panels made of heavy grades of rockwool, especially if it's spaced a few inches off the wall so sound passes through it twice before it reaches the listening position. Traps place across corners often work better for taming bass than ones on the wall. The ceiling is also a good place to put traps, and probably isn't cluttered with other stuff. The door can be treated as well.
Bear in mind that many commercial audio tiles really only reduce high-freqency reverberations. A 2" thick acoustic tile might only be working in the 10KHz+ region. And diffraction is at least as useful as trapping and can massively reduce standing waves and flutter echoes.
Furniture and bookshelves make good absorbers/difractors.
This really isn't something that is easily answered on a forum because it's complicated. Try searching the web for "diy acoustic room treatment" and similar phrases.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 14:56:44
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This is why it's critical to get near-fields as close as possible.. the closer they are the less the room sound will be involved in your listening experience. So if the room is not a proper studio set up we strive to work real close to our monitors. I think it's a waste of money to ad lib a room treatment. All that will happen is you will "change" the room. you still won't have it right. So just get those speakers close to you. I would think stands that can be easily moved when guests are present would be ideal. It may involve using a securement so they don't fall off when moved.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 15:04:47
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Cactus Music I think it's a waste of money to ad lib a room treatment.
Say what who now ?
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cparmerlee
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 17:47:48
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Here's an update. I got the stands in place and both speakers are symmetrical, 4 feet from my ears and several feet from the nearest wall. That is sounding good. This allowed me to hear what was undoubtedly an ongoing problem. My first interest was to hear how stereo separation improved. I played some music back though Media Player and I couldn't hear any separation at all. I went into SONAR and created test patterns where I could manually pan for certain. That worked, but I wasn't hearing the separation in Media Player. It turns out that on my audio interface (Presonus VSL1818), the Media Player feeds a different par of ports than SONAR feeds, and I had left the default setting to sum to mono. This is maddening because this problem has been happening for most of a year, and I only discovered it today. I don't use the Media Player that often, but it never would have been playing correctly since I got that audio interface. When the speakers were across the room, I guess I didn't expect the stereo separation to be that apparent. And I think that when I rendered directly from Finale, it was going through those ports playing mono. I always figured Finale just wasn't capable of a very good job of separation and never really investigated. Another thing I discovered is that my two speakers have vastly different output levels. They both seem to be putting out a good quality sound, but the right one is half as loud as the left. This may be a wiring problem, but I was able to adjust levels on the speakers to compensate for now. So I guess this is a confession that I wasn't hearing things very clearly. Definitely a big improvement now.
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John
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 18:53:37
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/11/15 12:03:05
My comment is this. If you haven't done something silly with audio at some point then you haven't done anything with audio at all.
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bitflipper
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 18:58:36
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Great news. Unbalanced powered speakers are not unusual. It's why they have individual volume controls on them. But it could also be an acoustical phenomenon. Either way, just run a mono signal through them and adjust so it sounds centered from the mix position. You may have to revisit it after installing absorption. My previous room also had large windows on two sides, and they definitely had a strong influence, especially when using a microphone in the room. But because that room was dedicated to recording and mixing, no longer serving its previous purpose as a guest room, I took the extreme step of covering the windows entirely with rigid fiberglass. I left the blinds in place to hold the fiberglass in place but left them in the open position. Yes, I did lose the calming effect of looking out at trees, but made up for it with mood lighting.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 18:59:32
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John My comment is this. If you haven't done something silly with audio at some point then you haven't done anything with audio at all.
Best comment ive seen today. that little saying can also be used in a lot of different ways....as in replace the word "Audio" and insert the word "Life"
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Anderton
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 19:07:05
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Run a 20 Hz - 20 kHz sweep tone through the speakers, and determine if you hear huge frequency response variations. Some EQ in the master bus can take out some of the worst variations. As to speaker level mismatches - this can happen if one is being fed a balanced input and the other, an unbalanced input. Check your cables and connections.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 20:45:21
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As to speaker level mismatches - this can happen if one is being fed a balanced input and the other, an unbalanced input. Check your cables and connections. Absolutely!! The minute you said this I went,, oh oh, bad connection somewhere. Or the audio interface is not outputting evenly Or the speaker is damaged. Run a diagnostic swapping. It helps if both cables are the same but it should not matter if they are both balanced and in good condition. I'm anal about cables so mine have to match 100%. Swap the cables at the interface. ----If the the quiet speaker is now louder then it's the interface or the cable. If it stays quiet then it's the speaker or the cable. Not the interface. Put the cables back where they were then: Swap the cables at the speaker ----If the quiet speaker is now louder then its the cable. ----If it stays quiet then it's the speaker. If you rule out the Interface and the cables and one speaker being radically different in volume at the same settings,, I would be a little worried that it is damaged. I can see a small difference is possible but Yamaha is not a brand I can see having this issue unless it's damaged.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/14 21:32:35
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Anderton As to speaker level mismatches - this can happen if one is being fed a balanced input and the other, an unbalanced input. It is all unbalanced, and the weaker speaker has a cable that is about 10 feet longer than the other. It is unbalanced because I run everything into a mixer, then feed it through a Samson C-que8 http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/processors/c-class/cque8/ which is a cheap way to manage several sets of speakers. And the only outputs on that box are stereo 1/4" headphone jacks. With the new speaker placement, the speakers are only 5' from the C-Que8, so I expect if I get 2 6' cords (and my stereo splitter cord), the levels will be very close. I should probably invest the time to rewire everything. I think the Presonus VSL1818 has enough inputs and outputs (plus its own internal mixer) so that I really don't need an external mixer or the C-Que8. That would probably clean up some low level noise I have always put up with. The noise is only in the monitors, not on the recordings.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/15 04:23:02
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With a little thought you could easily set up your system so that your speakers are fed with a balanced signal whilst still making use of your headphone amp. This should reduce any noise in the system. My setup is similar to yours and the routing is as follows. In SONAR, my master buss feeds hardware outputs 1 & 2. These feed into my mixer and the main outs of the mixer go via balanced cables to my monitors In SONAR, I set up a buss called Headphones. This buss feeds into hardware outputs 3 & 4. These feed into my headphone amp. You can connect what you want to the headphone amp outputs. All of my other busses (Drums/Vocals.Guitars/Keys etc) all have a SEND to the headphone buss, so you can tailor what goes to the headphone amp by adjusting the send levels of each buss.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/15 15:43:15
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Bristol_Jonesey With a little thought you could easily set up your system so that your speakers are fed with a balanced signal whilst still making use of your headphone amp.
I had been feeding my hardware mixer into the Samson headphone amp, and then out one of those headphone channels into the monitors, and the headphone amp doesn't do balanced outputs. As it turns out, my mixer has two pairs of outputs. The 1/4" phone pair was going to my headphone amp. The XLR pair was unused. And the Yamaha monitors also have both XLR and 1/4" inputs. So I simply left my headphone amp in place (with the Yamaha monitors disconnected) and ran XLR cables directly from my mixer to the Yamaha monitors. Problem solved. Now the monitor levels seem identical and the noise is lower. Most of the remaining noise is coming from a keyboard synth that I want to hear but I never record from (other than MIDI), so it is of no consequence. I had no idea unbalanced lines would make that much difference.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/15 15:47:49
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Good news
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thedukewestern
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Re: Seeking ideas about speaker selection and placement
2016/11/16 13:34:21
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Be the first one who thinks that you can Sonar Platinum, Windows 7 64 bit - clean install January 2016, Focusrite Pro 40, Outboard Pres, Native Instruments Komplete, Izotope, PSP, Melodyne, Vegetarian
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